Building it fast and looking slow.

redtail · Aug 23, 2010

Ok, I am trying to collect information here, nothing is set in stone and it will be a long while before things get to the building stage. Nonetheless early and informed is better than last minute and clueless, so here I am.

Some of you will find this project a little unusual, and may poo poo it. I have a project in mind that I think is pretty cool. Someday I hope to Call it the 'ultimate sleeper'
So I have what would be a 'survivor' 1970 ford f-350 1 ton with the 12 foot flatbed on it. (not perfect, but decent shape) it has a 360 ci in it right now that I have tuned up to run like new. of course it has little 'get up and go', it has the unstopable 5mph crawl.
I plan to fix that. This truck looks like a work truck (in fact... it is). It has the burned off ford turquoise paint on the hood, a bullet hole in the fender, and a chip in the grille. The interior is a step back in time frozen in 1970.
Not something you would think a tire burner. However, that is in fact the plan. I know this truck is a beast at just shy of five thousand pounds, but I would like to make a sleeper out of it. It has plenty of rubber on the road already, (you can fit 40 inches of rubber under the rear). so that makes part of the plan.
What would you suggest to do to this truck to make it able to support 850+ hp?
I was thinking that a stroked 385 series with the heck sprayed out of it. What is the best and 'biggest bang for your buck' route? What would I need for a 385 series swap? (I would have doner trucks avalable at pull a part).
what, if anything, would need to be beefed up in the suspension, frame? would ladder bars be needed?
I am pretty sure that a one piece driveline is a must for that kind of HP? and that the rearend would most likely need to be renforced, but what else would be needed? would you suggest going c-6 route, or keeping a manual (what is biggest bang for your buck)?
thank you very much for any advice.
if you want to see the truck, click here: http://s898.photobucket.com/albums/ac186/red-tail1/1ton/?action=view&current=DSCF6062.jpg

MrScharfenberger · Aug 23, 2010

Boy.... Do I have some experience with this. I fly a 4800 pound 1974 F100 pig.
First off with that kind of power you will need a beefier rear end. I went through 3 stock Ford 9 inch pumpkins before I bought a Strange Pro nodualr iron thrid member with a full spool and 35 spline axles. Believe it or not I'm still using the stock 2 piece driveshaft. The same drive shaft that literally ripped 3 third members to pieces. On the third, third member it actually broke so violently on the line (I drag race this thing) that I sent shrapnel up through the bed. I had 6 holes in it that clearly came from the underside. Denny's Driveshaft wanted $1300 for a 2 piece drivshaft and would not guarantee it. I figured I'd eventually end up buying it when I broke the stock one. I haven't broken it yet and I've hit the nitrous on the line a few times. About 1100 horse power altogether. All I did to the stock rear end housing was add the Jegs rear end brace to it. It all weleded up real nice and has been holding the power ever since. I also put a set of Competition engineering Ladder bars out back. I actually turned the ladder bars upside down. They fit better this way and they are tucked way up in there. You can't see them. You have to be looking for them to find them. I know an F-350 has stiffer rear leaf springs but I would still be scared of turning them into an S on the launch with the kind of power that you are talking about. I'd also go with the C6. The truck transmissions are made for pulling. That first gear is a granny gear. No good really for hauling butt. I have lots of pictures of the rear end if you care to see them. If so just ask. Below is a link to my website with the truck and the engine build info at the bottom. It isn't all updated but it is still relavent.

Website: www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100

Cool Video's that are posted but no links to them on the website: Both videos are all motor. No nitrous.

www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/TruckVideos/F100vs78TransAm.avi

www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/TruckVideos/F100vsNova.avi

Good luck with the build. It sounds real cool to me. But then again look what I built!! ....and I have a 93 LX foxbody coupe in the back of the barn just waiting to go to the shop for a 12 point roll cage. I figured I'd let the professionals build this roll cage. This is going to be the car that could possibley kill me!

redtail · Aug 23, 2010

[/QUOTE] I have lots of pictures of the rear end if you care to see them. If so just ask. Below is a link to my website with the truck and the engine build info at the bottom. It isn't all updated but it is still relavent.

Website: www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100

Cool Video's that are posted but no links to them on the website: Both videos are all motor. No nitrous.

www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/TruckVideos/F100vs78TransAm.avi

www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/TruckVideos/F100vsNova.avi

Good luck with the build. It sounds real cool to me. But then again look what I built!! ....and I have a 93 LX foxbody coupe in the back of the barn just waiting to go to the shop for a 12 point roll cage. I figured I'd let the professionals build this roll cage. This is going to be the car that could possibley kill me![/QUOTE]

Very cool. Pics would be good. You have pugs? I do too. (Like three at home, and then all the family has at least one).

MrScharfenberger · Aug 24, 2010

Here are some teaser pictures for you. These were from about a year and a half ago. I'm going to get out there tomorrow (I have the day off) and take some more that really shows the setup better.

The first few pictures that you will see is of the floating rearend housing that I had to modify to fit on a pickup truck. Our leaf springs sit on top of the axel where a Mustang or something has the leaf spring below the axle so the modificaiton was necessary. In these picutres there are no spacers that attach the top of the floating housing to the bottom of the floating housing. The top part is a piece that I hand fabricated to make the floating rear end housing work properly.

http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/1.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/2.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/3.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/4.jpg

The next few pictures you will see more of the ladder bars. Notice that they are indeed upside down. They are sill however parallel with the frame. People may say this is stupid but you know what?? I get a pickup truck with 1000+ horsepower on the bottle to hook up. I don't spin on the line and the thing just flat takes off. I also don't waste power picking up the front end. Although I will say that the bed raises a bit. (325 nitrous shot using a NOS Big Shot plate system). Also notice that the rear brackets for the ladder bars are mounted upside down. The front brackets I had to shear in half right doen the middle. I then flipped the piece that mounts to the front of the ladder bar. I had to do this because the arc of the ladder bar when mounted upside down swang a different way. You will see the front brackets in one of these pictures. It is easy to see where they were cut and welded back together.

http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/5.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/6.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/7.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/8.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/9.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/10.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/11.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/12.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/13.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/14.jpg
http://www.MrScharfenberger.com/F100/RearSuspension/15.jpg

I'm not sure what all else was in that bunch of picutres. I know you will see the ladder bars and how they work. I'll take some more pictures tomorrow and post them. If for any other reason I really need to update my website. I've done a lot more work to the truck that is shown in these pictures. Everything is painted and pretty. These also don't show the current rear end. Structure is still the same though.. If you have any other questions just ask. I don't know anybody else that does this stuff. I don't know why I do but I do. I have a complete 20 year Car Craft and Hot Rod magazine education. But listen to some of the guys on here. They are very smart and really know their stuff. I hope all of this helps!!

1977_F150_460 · Aug 24, 2010

I knew a guy in highschool that had a high hp rough looking dually pickup, left some cool looking burnouts all over the county. With the tight rear springs, amount of grip 4 tires got, and the heavy axle, he just fought wheel hop, it was like an overinflated basketball once they started. He never worried about it much, but it could tear up the drivetrain if you were pushing serious power. You'll need some traction bars, just get something stout, a standard car or light truck setup won't do.

I dig the rough looking fast truck idea - I have a 77 F150 with around $6k in the drivetrain and a body I bought for $800 and was able to drive home.

redtail · Aug 24, 2010

1977_F150_460 said:
= You'll need some traction bars, just get something stout, a standard car or light truck setup won't do.

I dig the rough looking fast truck idea - I have a 77 F150 with around $6k in the drivetrain and a body I bought for $800 and was able to drive home.

Would I be able to find something close to what I need (do you think) or would I need to fabricate all of this extra heavy duty stuff myself?

Yeah, here the dent side f series's are cheap! if you click around on my photo bucket link (in my first posting) I have a pic of a 77 ford I bought for 400 bucks. it had a 62 tbird 390 in it that had been redone only 5 years before. I got it for cheap becasue of the ruff looking exterior and a bad driveline (but it drove home!). That 1 ton only cost me 675.

redtail · Aug 24, 2010

MrScharfenberger said:
I don't know anybody else that does this stuff. I don't know why I do but I do. I have a complete 20 year Car Craft and Hot Rod magazine education. But listen to some of the guys on here. They are very smart and really know their stuff. I hope all of this helps!!

Yes, there will be questions aplenty

. what have you done to your engine to make er pump out over a 1000?

Oh, what is your 1/4 mile times? I couldn't read the board (or see if it was 1/8 or 1/4 mile for that matter).

MrScharfenberger · Aug 24, 2010

My motor is just under 800 horse. I then dump a 325 shot of nitrous on top of that using a NOS Big Shot plate system. I have never run the quarter mile. I live in Lousiville KY and we only have an 1/8 mile track here. I'm afraid to run it on the 1/4 mile. I'm think it may try to leave the earth and fly. The front end raises up pretty high by the time I hit the far end. When I get off of it, it sits back down a good 8 to 10 inches. The thing isn't really built to go that fast. I have had it on the highway going pretty fast and eventually it just quits steering. You can turn the wheel but it just goes straight. Not a real good feeling. In the video with the Trans Am I ran a 7.26 at I think 95mph. It has run a best of 7.16 at 96.5 motor only.

I don't want to hijack this guys thread. If you have other questions just send me a message and I'll answer. I'll work on putting up some more current info on the build page of this forum. I don't think I have anything there now.

redtail · Aug 25, 2010

I don't want to hijack this guys thread. If you have other questions just send me a message and I'll answer. I'll work on putting up some more current info on the build page of this forum. I don't think I have anything there now.

I'm the OP anyway, so don't worry about it. What did you put in your motor? cam, crank, ect. and (not to be nosey) but, how much could I expext to pay to build something like the engine you built.

oh yeah, what did you have to do to swap from the fe to the 460?

MrScharfenberger · Aug 25, 2010

Oh heck... It is your thread. Sorry about that. I sure wish I could see all the posts to a thread when I'm responding. Honestly I'm not sure what I got into the thing. I'll start listing parts and prices below and see what I come up with. I built this thing over a 10 year period of time. The block, crank and heads were all part of the original build (SVO Stroker 514 short block, Edelbrock Performer Cam and intake was the original build. I blew that up racing without an air cleaner. I sucked in a bolt and killed #4). Since that original build I've gone a bit nutty. Here is the list of all the parts. Get some tissue ready. You are gonna cry when you see the total. I know I will...

Ford Cobra Jet Aluminum Heads (2.25, 1.76) $2250 (back in 1999)
Manley Extreme or Sever duty valves $400 (I can't remember which ones they are but they are the ones right below the titanium valves they sell. I tuliped the original valves with the high spring pressure on the roller cam)

SVO Stroker Short Block ($2600 in 1999). But no longer using the rods or pistons.

Eagle H-Beam Rods 6.605 length $650 (no Chevy sizes on this Ford!!)
J&E Forged pistons 12.7:1 compression assembled (13.3:1 advertised) $800
Lunati part# 51606 Solid Roller Cam and Cam Kit $1000
Lunati Double Roller Timing Chain $90
Edelbrock Victor 460 Intake $320
CSR Billet Aluminium Electric Water Pump $325 (I think)
CSR 1 1/2 inch carb spacer $120 (I think)
Flex-a-Lite Dual Puller Electric Fans (4400 cfm) $450
Quick Fuel 4150 E-85 1050 cfm carb $900
Msd Mechanical Distributor $250
MSD 6AL Ignition Box $209
MSD Timing Retart Box $150 (For when I hit the Nitrous)
Aeromotive SS Electric Fuel Pump $200
NOS Big Shot Plate System $490
NOS Purge Kit $90
AN fittings and braided fuel line and return line $300 to $400
Rear Jegster fuel tank sump kit $45
Jegster Roll Cage kit for a 1974 Ford Pickup $350 Delivered
TCI Full Competition C6 with Trans Brake $1600
TCI 10 inch 4500 Stall $475
Strange Pro Iron Rear Pumpkin with full 35 spline spool $1300
Moser 35 spline axles $450
Jegster 9 inch rear end brace $60
Extra 10 pound Nitrous bottle $200
Summit Racing Battery Boxes (2 of them) $160
Copper cable long and thick enough to reach the battery boxes $85
Moroso Electrical cut off switch on the rear bumper $60
B&M Truck Mega Shifter $200
Mickey Thompson Drag Slicks $400
Simmit Racing Drive Shaft loops (2 of them) $120
Rear Lexan window $50
Crap I can't even begin to think of... $900 The little things add up quick.

This doesn't included tach and gauges, stuff like that, that I added because I just wanted to.. You don't have to have the fancy stuff to haul butt.

OK. Damn. I'm gonna cry for sure. I just broke out the calcualtor and it came out to $18,149.

This didn't even include the cost of the truck (bought it off eBay in Nashville TN for $2200. And yes. I saw the truck before I bought it. My parents used to live there)

Oh yes... I forgot. also about $2500 bucks worth of machine work. Heads are proted and port matched to intake, lots of oiling work done. Can't leave out the speed shop. Shively Speed in Louisville KY. The guy does good work.

I still owe you some pictures of the rear end and stuff. That reminds me... Chassis Engineering Ladder bars, Rancho 9 way adjustable truck shocks, cross member and floating rear end housing kit: $610

I'll have to get the pictures posted over the weekend. I got sucked into work on a day off. But I have the weekends off so Saturday I'll pull it out and take some pictures of the thing. The website is hopelessly out of date. Haven't updated it since about 2005. I need to do it bad. I have a lot of work into this thing. I hope this helps and I hope you aren't passed out on the floor. I know I'm gasping for air.

Remember.... The guy with the most money wins. That is the only crappy thing about this hobby.

I'm going to go breathe into a paper bag now. I'm about to hyperventilate. My retirement just got extended out another 10 years.

MrScharfenberger · Aug 25, 2010

I forgot to answer the last question. You will need new mount towers and motor mounts to swap to a 385 series. My truck originally came with a 360. I think you are right and that is a FE series. I don't know much about those. I walk right past them because they are clearly not heavy enough.

Oh yes.. Heddman ceramic coated headers $450

L&L products in Rowlett Texas sells the mount towers. They are real nice pieces of work.

...that reminds me.

L&L Mount towers $160
L&L Motor Mounts $90 (I think)

And I'm still sticking with the $900 in parts that I can't begin to think of.

Trick flow 10 micron fuel filter $90
CSR aluminium radiatior over flow canister $65
Aeromotive Bypass style fuel pressure regulator $120

Holly crap... The list goes on and on. Where is my paper bag? If the wife ever sees this I'm a dead man!!

redtail · Aug 26, 2010

Hahaha... never keep clear records for the wife to stumble upon.

I could proly get away with a junkyard 460 doner truck for what I need. that would take 2400 off the top. I have a freind that builds tranny's so I might be able to work something with him. I also only have 750 bucks in the truck itself (plus the replacement parts to get the 360 up and running for the time being) There is also an artical here I was thinking of using this as a recipe: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0906phr_big_block_ford_engine/index.html
check it out?

redtail · Aug 28, 2010

Scored a mid 80's 460 out of a super duty or f-3-450 for nothing. Needs everything tho

MrScharfenberger · Aug 28, 2010

Do you know if it was an EFI motor or a carb motor? After 1987 the changed to EFI and the top of the motors are way different. Heads changed and other stuff. The short block should be good to use if that is the case but I can tell you that if it was an EFI motor you won't want the heads. They have very small valves (Good for making torque. Bad for hauling butt) and none of the aftermarket intakes will bolt up to them. Different bolt patterns and different intake runners.

I'm was in the process of pulling the truck out of the barn. I'm going to get some pictures takend today and post them. I'm going to update the website as well.

NICE SCORE!! FREE IS AWSOME!!

redtail · Aug 28, 2010

MrScharfenberger said:
Do you know if it was an EFI motor or a carb motor? After 1987 the changed to EFI and the top of the motors are way different. Heads changed and other stuff. The short block should be good to use if that is the case but I can tell you that if it was an EFI motor you won't want the heads. They have very small valves (Good for making torque. Bad for hauling butt) and none of the aftermarket intakes will bolt up to them. Different bolt patterns and different intake runners.

I'm was in the process of pulling the truck out of the barn. I'm going to get some pictures takend today and post them. I'm going to update the website as well.

NICE SCORE!! FREE IS AWSOME!!

Yes, I do belive that it was an efi engine. The bosses on the intake are drilled and there is no hole for the fuel pump on the front of the timing cover thing. question: I was going to buy a scat crank or equvolent when I get around to building it. would I need to buy the crank before I get it blanced, bluprinted and (perhaps) cross bolted? What would you suggest for align boring the crank and cam berings? decking? boring? (it needs .030 over, but should I go bigger?).

Good to get the truck out and about!

would you take a look at the build recipe I posted a couple posts up? (I tried copying and pasting but the link will not work if I copy and paste).

thx

MrScharfenberger · Aug 28, 2010

.30 over is fine. That will make a nice 466 for you. If you are going to buy a crank and pistons anyway you might want to consider getting a 4.3 or 4.5 stroke crank and a set of stroker pistons. You could make either a 521 with a 4.3 stroke crank or a 545 with the 4.5 stroke crank. The extra cubes are nice and that will be a good boost to horsepower right off the bat. I'm going to have to do a little research on the EFI motor that you have. I am pretty sure that older heads will bolt onto that block in place of the EFI heads (If the valve cover bolts are on top of the valve covers and not around the perimeter then that is an EFI motor). I know you can use the stock length 6.605 inch rods with a 4.3 stroke crank and a set of stroker pistons (that is what I run). I'm not sure if you have to replace the rods with the 4.5 stroke crank or not. Something tells me that you will need the either 6.7 or 6.8 inch rods for the 4.5 stroke crank. Anyway I'll take a peek at the build in a little bit and type up some more tonight when I get the pictures posted.

95lightiningguy · Aug 29, 2010

Any 385 series heads will bolt to that block, its just that the intakes are different for the EFI. As long as you use older style heads you will be fine with any aftermarket intake. .03 over, zero deck it, and have the mains alignment checked (some people say hone but I dont unless they are out of alignment). The rotating assembly as a whole will need to be balanced. Hope this helps. Sounds like a fun ride.

MrScharfenberger · Aug 29, 2010

Well I finally got out there and took some pictures. I'll post them all. If you have any questions about them just ask. Please forgive the Chebby in the last few pictures. 2003 with only 15,900 miles. It is my new daily driver ( I was driving a Saturn SL1. I got slammed by an uninsured driver and the car was totaled. It hurt a little too..). Bet you can't guess which one is the slow car!!

MrScharfenberger · Aug 29, 2010

Oh.. Hell yes. That is a bad a$$ build. I wish the P-51's were around when I started my build. They are wicked pieces of aluminium (I'd die for a set of Boss 9's as well. I just choke on the $650 valve cover price!!). I'd like to get a set of the P-51's now but they will not work with my pistons. I'm going to have to wait to blow something up before I do all of that.

I say if that is what you like them go for it!! I don't see anything wrong with that. But your truck will. You will have to have another transmission and you will have to do something to the rear end. You will never hold all of that. You will just end up spitting driveline parts out on the freeway!! ...ask me how I know.

redtail · Aug 30, 2010

MrScharfenberger said:
Oh.. Hell yes. That is a bad a$$ build. I wish the P-51's were around when I started my build. They are wicked pieces of aluminium (I'd die for a set of Boss 9's as well. I just choke on the $650 valve cover price!!). I'd like to get a set of the P-51's now but they will not work with my pistons. I'm going to have to wait to blow something up before I do all of that.

I say if that is what you like them go for it!! I don't see anything wrong with that. But your truck will. You will have to have another transmission and you will have to do something to the rear end. You will never hold all of that. You will just end up spitting driveline parts out on the freeway!! ...ask me how I know.

700 smakers just for some valve covors? dang.

aside from the roll bars, and wide slicks, your truck does not look like a race car. XP

I was thinking of a built c-6. I know a guy that builds trannys (his son and I are good friends) so I can get some real good advice from him.

I'll get some more photos of my rig up. I got the bed finished just yesterday, and it looks sleeperlishious.

I was thinkin of some 'fightin words' to paint on the side of the bed

"mopar molester"
"Chevy stomper"
"porsche poacher
"mazarati masher"
Eh?

oh, any idea on how big is the biggest you can safely bore a 460?

Building it fast and looking slow.

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