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Discussion Starter #1
Howdy everyone! I'm new here and this is my first post. Here's the deal. The 460 in my '77 F150 has been hinting for awhile that it's getting tired, and finally it has lost enough compression to have blowby strong enough to make a steam locomotive jealous of it's smoke. So now the new build is on.

The goal is to make this a motor that can produce enough power to easily pull a loaded car trailer (possibly with the AC on). It has to be Street able and run pump gas (87-89 octane). It will be carburetor powered without a doubt as I have no interest in fuel injection. MPG isnt really that important, because we all know that either way, it only gets 10-12 mpg at best. Also one more thing, the truck is pretty much daily driven.

I have brand new rebuilt D3 heads that have been milled .020. new valves, 3 angle valve job, seats, guides, etc. No port work has been done. Stock springs in them, but willing to change them out if needed. Stock valve train and rocker ratio. I'd like to stick with regular hydraulic lifters and regular rockers to keep costs down.

My block is a D7 casting I believe. It's been awhile since I looked, but my truck is a '77. Currently stock bore and stroke. Stock dished pistons and compression ratio. Plan is to have the block line bored .030" over, new pistons (with the dish to keep compression down to 8-8.5:1) and of course new rings and bearings. I plan to reuse the rods, but have them cleaned up and checked out. I also plan to have the entire rotating assembly balanced as well, just to be sure it's all good.

My current intake is a D3 casting 4bbl manifold that's meant for a spreadbore carb and an EGR. I hope to find a D2 or older intake, as it's made for a squarebore carb.

The big part of the equation is the cam. I had the stock one in it originally. It was a dog, even when times straight up. Never really had much power at the bottom end, but it had a decent mid range. A few years back 8 swapped in the K3500 camshaft from Summit racing. It advertised bigger lift, but similar characteristics to the stock cam. Safe to say I've never been very impressed with it. My vacuum has been lower (15" with no leaks vs 21" with no leaks), it's been gutless throughout the entire rpm range, etc. I forget the exact specs of it.

My carburetor is the Summit racing version of a Holley 4160. 750cfm, vacuum secondaries and it's a square bore.

So really I'm looking for advice from those that have built these motors for daily driver service trucks. What cam did you use? What's your horsepower and torque? Would you change anything about your build?

I've read the several guides and recipes for making decent hp/tq from these engines but wanted insight from the pros as to the all out best way to build a bullet proof street engine for this truck. The truck is NOT a drag truck or really even meant to be crazy fast. It's my daily driver and tow rig that sees a good amount of highway and stop and go traffic. Occasionally I wouldn't mind being able to stomp on it and surprise the fart can cars at the red lights.

I've got 3.23 gears in the rear end and 31" tires on her currently. Still running the stock C6 trans too if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance!
 

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Welcome...

How was your ignition timing curve set up on the prior engine?

The OEM static c/r in 1977 was less than 8 to 1. Straight up cam timing and a proper ignition advance curve makes a huge difference.

Will you be using headers and dual exhaust?

Some supposed straight up timing sets are not actually straight up. Here is a link to our BBF tech that shows the difference.


Timing-rear-comparison-index




SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I had recurved and set up my distributor and timing to run a total of 36* timing.

I have 12* of initial combined with 24* centrifugal. Vacuum advance would kick in another 12* and is connected to ported vacuum off the carb.

My timing set was the 3 way cloyes double roller set. It is currently set with the crank sprocket in the center detent, for what cloyes calls "straight up" timing.
 

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I had recurved and set up my distributor and timing to run a total of 36* timing.

I have 12* of initial combined with 24* centrifugal. Vacuum advance would kick in another 12* and is connected to ported vacuum off the carb.

My timing set was the 3 way cloyes double roller set. It is currently set with the crank sprocket in the center detent, for what cloyes calls "straight up" timing.

Center relative to the 3 choices on the crank gear or center relative to the tooth, dot and keyway in alignment at noon?

I ask this because the symptoms you describe match retarded cam timing or improper ignition curve. As a new poster we know little about your level of expertise so bear with the questions.

Some supposed straight up timing sets actually have the center choice of the 3 marked as straight up when the keyway is offset clockwise retarding the timing.


SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes the center keyway, with the dots facing each other at 6:00 on the cam and 12:00 on the crank.

Besides the blowby, I'd agree that the cam does sound and feel retarded. The exhaust doesn't sound right, the truck has always had issues idling, and the cam currently in it only lets the truck have about 15-16" of vacuum.

For grins we ran a compression test. Here are the results.

Cyl. Psi
1. 100 dry 120 wet
2. 90 dry 90 wet
3. 95 dry. 95 wet
4. 90 dry. 95 wet
5. 100 dry 120 wet
6. 105 dry 125 wet
7. 100 dry 120 wet
8. 105 dry 115 wet


No problem with the questions! I've been doing this awhile but there's always lots to learn!
 

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back to basics

For your application, a good high-lift, shorter duration camshaft will give you the torque for towing that you're looking for, without the thumping that you didn't want. Headers and dual exhaust will give you a major increase in HP as well. Remember, 429/460's were built as great breathers to begin with! Don't let your exhaust system put a stranglehold on it. Your gear ratio, with 31" tires is great for gas mileage, but not so much for initially putting that torque to the ground to begin pulling a load. Your larger tires turn that 3.23 into about 2.80-3.00, depending on tthe original tire size. If you want to get good gas mileage, consider changing out the C6 for an AOD unit. C6's eat HP (on average 50-75), and AOD's have a slightly tighter gearing band. If this is too much, consider an aftermarket OD/UD unit that can be installed behind your transmission. These can be set up and wired in to either give you an extra low first gear or an extra high 3rd/4th. There are several units out there to choose from, some more bulletproof than others. I'm sure there's a forum for those somewhere. You might also consider trying out the positions on your new timing chain gears, see what works best for you in your application. Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hey all! Back on after awhile. Here's where I'm at.

I scored locally a fresh 460 block and rotating assembly from a '79. It's punched .040" and has not been decked. The rotating assembly is an externally balanced set, which is fine because I got the spacer with it too. Only downside is that I have to order a new flexplate, but that's not a huge deal.

My hope is to put in a cam that mimics the 1970 429 (the 360hp one). I found one that's made by Howard cams and plan to order that today at some point along with new lifters and a degree wheel. The specs of the cam are almost identical to the stock '77 grind, except for a hair more lift.

I also ordered up an Edelbrock 2166 intake as well. It's the performer 460 manifold, not the RPM or air gap one.

My distributor should be fine to reuse as is, because I already had it curved to bring in all my timing by about 3000-3200 RPMs. The rest of my ignition system is all stock Duraspark.

I also have single outlet 2.5" exhaust as well. Next spring I'm hoping to change that to duals to help it breather a bit better.
 

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Hey all! Back on after awhile. Here's where I'm at.

I scored locally a fresh 460 block and rotating assembly from a '79. It's punched .040" and has not been decked. The rotating assembly is an externally balanced set, which is fine because I got the spacer with it too. Only downside is that I have to order a new flexplate, but that's not a huge deal.

My hope is to put in a cam that mimics the 1970 429 (the 360hp one). I found one that's made by Howard cams and plan to order that today at some point along with new lifters and a degree wheel. The specs of the cam are almost identical to the stock '77 grind, except for a hair more lift.

I also ordered up an Edelbrock 2166 intake as well. It's the performer 460 manifold, not the RPM or air gap one.

My distributor should be fine to reuse as is, because I already had it curved to bring in all my timing by about 3000-3200 RPMs. The rest of my ignition system is all stock Duraspark.

I also have single outlet 2.5" exhaust as well. Next spring I'm hoping to change that to duals to help it breather a bit better.

All of the BBF passenger car and truck cams are almost identical.
That 360 rating for the 429 and 365 for the old high compression engines was optimistic at best. 320 as installed is more accurate.

A short duration cam like the custom voodoo we use in our EFI crate engine is ideal for a working combination and will offer much better power than the OEM grind.

193 / 206 @ .050 on a 113 lsa in at 110 early or in at 118 late. OEM cam

207 / 219 / 110 in at 106 offers significant improvement in torque with 500 / 525 lift.


SJ
used 2b RHP



:D
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Is that amount of lift okay to rn with stock heads> I know I'd have to change out my valve springs at least, but I have read elsewhere that that high lift of a cam is too much for a mostly stock engine and will actually make less power because it can't breathe correctly.

Reason I ask is because those specs sound similar to my existing cam, except that yours has more lift on the intake side.
 

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Is that amount of lift okay to rn with stock heads> I know I'd have to change out my valve springs at least, but I have read elsewhere that that high lift of a cam is too much for a mostly stock engine and will actually make less power because it can't breathe correctly.

Reason I ask is because those specs sound similar to my existing cam, except that yours has more lift on the intake side.

Even on freshly machined castings with NO port work additional lift = better breathing. What you read is not correct.

Top your valve guides .100" and add PC seals. A good single spring package will keep the valve train under proper control. Comp 926-16 is a good drop in.

Check out this link to see what can be done with a simple performance valve job and attention to details.


https://www.facebook.com/pg/PpamLLC/photos/?tab=album&album_id=746402525737427


The same can be done with the later large chamber castings. The bolt down rockers are fine up to 450 hp.



SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Then in your opinion, would the camshaft I currently have still suit me well? Assuming it's somewhat currently retarded? I just never liked how the truck ran with it.

15" of vacuum at hot idle, no/very very low vacuum at cruise a very lumpy exhaust that would rattle the truck if in gear (650-750rpms), and low power (inability to break the tires loose on dry pavement) I guess are my biggest issues with the setup.

On a couple of sites (elgin is the one I have pulled up now), they state that their version of my cam (E-1160-P) will only have a fair idle compared to a stock one.

Most manufacturers I have seen grind the cams to be at the "straight up" mark already...or so they say. That's why we didn't degree it when we installed it. Guess we have learned our lesson there!
 

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Then in your opinion, would the camshaft I currently have still suit me well? Assuming it's somewhat currently retarded? I just never liked how the truck ran with it.

15" of vacuum at hot idle, no/very very low vacuum at cruise a very lumpy exhaust that would rattle the truck if in gear (650-750rpms), and low power (inability to break the tires loose on dry pavement) I guess are my biggest issues with the setup.

On a couple of sites (elgin is the one I have pulled up now), they state that their version of my cam (E-1160-P) will only have a fair idle compared to a stock one.

Most manufacturers I have seen grind the cams to be at the "straight up" mark already...or so they say. That's why we didn't degree it when we installed it. Guess we have learned our lesson there!
You are referring to the summit K3500 cam? 204 / 214 @ .050?

The elgin cam is a single pattern [email protected] .050" and is not suitable for the BBF.

Getting the right timing set and making certain that the cam timing is straight up is critical.
Unless the crank gear has the keyway, tooth and dot at noon exactly it is not straight up.


http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/Timing-rear-comparison-index.html



SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #13
My mistake I should have clarified. Yes I mean the summit 3500 cam. It seems that it's specs are duplicated by almost every other cam manufacturer as well and is supposedly considered a great choice for building a 460.
 

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My mistake I should have clarified. Yes I mean the summit 3500 cam. It seems that it's specs are duplicated by almost every other cam manufacturer as well and is supposedly considered a great choice for building a 460.

That is a generic grind yes. As to being a great choice. Debatable.

It is a short duration cam that should not have any lope at all and must be installed straight up!!!


SJ
used 2b RHP


:D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So what would make it a debatable choice for my application? Too much lift for stock springs and heads?

I think the LSA of that cam is similar to stock. I want to say it's 112* and I thought that the stock cam was 116*. Granted that's a difference of 4* and could be a larger difference than I thought. To my understanding, the longer LSA makes a broader and flatter torque curve and also makes it idle smoother...correct?

I'm really just looking for a dependable cam that I can put in that will give me stock smooth idle, good vacuum and enough power to tow a loaded single car trailer. Maybe do a burnout or two for fun every once in a blue moon. If I can, I'd like to keep the stock valve train and cam springs as well. That's why I was kind of leaning toward a stock or mostly stock cam, because before we installed this one my truck ran pretty good. It was no power House, but the vacuum was 20-21" every day of the week and it idled like glass.

Degree wheel is ordered! Not making that mistake again.
 

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So what would make it a debatable choice for my application? Too much lift for stock springs and heads?

I think the LSA of that cam is similar to stock. I want to say it's 112* and I thought that the stock cam was 116*. Granted that's a difference of 4* and could be a larger difference than I thought. To my understanding, the longer LSA makes a broader and flatter torque curve and also makes it idle smoother...correct?

I'm really just looking for a dependable cam that I can put in that will give me stock smooth idle, good vacuum and enough power to tow a loaded single car trailer. Maybe do a burnout or two for fun every once in a blue moon. If I can, I'd like to keep the stock valve train and cam springs as well. That's why I was kind of leaning toward a stock or mostly stock cam, because before we installed this one my truck ran pretty good. It was no power House, but the vacuum was 20-21" every day of the week and it idled like glass.

Degree wheel is ordered! Not making that mistake again.

See post 8 for stock cam specs and the 113 lsa and 110 icl.

Lack of exhaust timing.



SJ


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The 460 heads are plagued by an exhaust port that doesn't flow that much relative to the intake. A rule of thumb is that the exhaust flow needs to be at least 75% of the intake flow. You will hear different numbers thrown around that are debatable, but for the sake of this post, I will be using 75%. If you have that 75%, E/I flow you can get away with a single pattern cam where the intake duration and the exhaust duration are the same. For every 2 percentage points less than 75%, you need to add 1 degree of duration on the exhaust. A lot of stock 460 heads are in the 58% or worse E/I flow ratio. For that reason, a better camshaft fit for a stockish 460 will have 10 to 12 degrees more duration on the exhaust side such as the 207/219 example that the Mad Porter provided earlier. Essentially you need to keep the exhaust valve open a little longer to get all of the exhaust out. Hopefully Mad Porter or others will jump in if I said anything blatantly incorrect.
 
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