460 Ford Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This message is really directed to Scotty (the mad porter), but it seems I can’t post PMs, so here we go.

Hello from your neighbor across the hill (I’m in Yakima). To start out, I am not a mechanic, I just pretend I think I know what I’m doing. So please be gentle. I am getting a bit too old to be crawling up and over and under all over a vehicle turning wrenches these days, so whatever you tell me will be done by a local mechanic or maybe even by you.

What I have: a 100% stock 1990 F-250 XLT Lariet 4x4 with a 460 EFI motor, 140k miles but running good. Since it’s a 1990 with a push button overdrive, I am going to assume it is a E4OD tranny. I do not know the gear ratio, but at 60-65mph it is approx 2000 rpm in overdrive and 2700 rpm overdrive off, so I am assuming 3:55 gears. Gas mileage sucks, like 8.7mpg with an 8’ camper going over the pass on I-90.

What I want: I want to do this in 2 phases, one right now, and one next spring/summer. For phase 1 I want to haul my 21’ 5th wheel of 7500lbs over the passes. -If- my understanding is correct, this will require approx 300-325hp and 375-400 ft/lb torque (please correct me if I am wrong). I think this stock 460 Efi is like 230-240hp and 320/330 torque??? Obviously short of the needs. For this phase, I want to just do the simple external basics (timing, computer, smog, exhaust, etc), just the minimum needed to get what I need.

For phase 2 I want to haul my 28.5’ 5th wheel of 10,000-11,000lb. Again, -If- my understanding is correct, this requires like 400-450hp and 475-500lb torque? Obviously way more than stock. I think for this phase I am looking at a motor rebuild and doing things like heads, rods, cam, and more tuning on the computer etc. The whole Monty sorta speak. You tell me (please).

I have zero interest in street or strip racing or even showing off. Those days are far behind me. I just want to go hunting, fishing, haul my 5th wheels without much fuss, and doing it without breaking the bank on gas Mileage. And if I am honest, I am sick of watching a guy I know with a Chevy truck with a stock 6 cylinder getting 18mpg turn around and haul his 30’ 12000lb 5th wheel without thinking about it. It’s damn frustrating. I know the 460 has it in it, it’s just a matter of doing things right.

Also, SD vs MF sequential Efi. This is where I get a headache. Someone will say, You need to use this or that mustang ecu and someone else will say no that won’t work, you need this Lincoln or cobra, or truck ecu and cross this or that wire etc etc etc etc Etc. Then there is this kit or that kit or whatever and when you go searching these kits vary from $400 to over $5000! Many seem to have the same stuff in them. WTF? This is way far outside my knowledge base. We do have a good programmer/tuner guy in town, but he always wants to push his stuff and not knowing enough on the subject, I am completely lost. Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t ford have a mass air sequential Efi 460 in like 1996? Shouldn’t it just be a simple swap to that? I am so confused on this subject I don’t know if I am coming or going. Help me Obi-Wan-Kanobi, you are my only hope!!!

Thanks for your help, and for all the help you give to others, even if they don’t listen.

Thanks, Lenn
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Just for some extra info…

background, I did a lot of street and bracket racing back in the 70’s and ran a BB Chevy Super Gas in the 80’s and early 90’s, so I will understand some of what you say, but when it comes to all the electronic and smog crap, I will only “get” some of it. I am retired career military, living on a pension, so I don’t have deep pockets. I hope I can get there.

The problem(s): I have been researching the internet and lurking on this and other forums for over a month reading and trying to understand what I can. What I have figured out is that nobody agrees on anything, and I mean direct contradictions, including on this forum. From what I been able to gather and conclude is that you seem to be the most constant and knowledgeable on the Efi 460 I have found, thus I am coming to you and just do what you suggest, assuming I can afford it, LOL. Thank God you are semi local.

A whole bunch of examples of what I mean are as follows, hoping to get you where I am so you can lead me out of the dark and on the right path.

I am going to assume the very first thing you are going to tell me is headers and exhaust. I will do them if you say so, BUT, I am honestly not all that interested in the “joys” of headers. I.e. bolts always coming loose, leaks everlasting, rusting, lowering my ground clearance, burning spark wires, impossible to change plugs, etc etc etc. I am sure you know the “joys” of which I speak. Some say the headers are the end all be all, some say they won’t do jack and that it’s more about the cats and having dual exhaust etc etc. Then there is of course the fact that on the Efi 460 the heads are squirelly and headers cost a mint for them. Some say they have fixed the “joys” by thicker flanges etc and are shorter to prevent losing ground clearance and such. But then we are back to the weird Efi 460 heads and their ports. Then of course the 460efiguys have an adapter for that, but I have never been a fan of adapters of any kind. They have a tendency to introduce more problems than they solve. Makes my head spin trying to figure out facts from fiction on this.

Then there is all the smog crap. Some say it has to go. Some say it won‘t help at all to remove. And everything in between. One of the big ones I hear a lot is the egr. Some say it has to go others say don‘t because it will actually make things run worse by removing. Same with the cats. I have no idea what to think.

Oh boy, here’s a good one. The timing chain. Something about it being retarded from the factory to pass smog inspections and needs to be swapped (the gear or just retiming it). Some swear by it, others warn not to do it. Then some say this is not the case at all on the Efi 460 and others say it is. WTF ? Which is it?

The heads. Even I know this is where torque and horsepower is made, but with the Efi 460, it seems this is not an option without going to a carb (I’ll get into this more later). So there is nobody out there making a good head for an Efi 460? Really? Wow. If all of this is true, I am guessing this is going to bring me to a set of your ported heads? No? I looked a bit and I didn’t find any aftermarket Efi heads.

This brings us to the intake. Again, seems like there is nothing out there at all for the Efi 460 without switching to a carb. Yes, No? Now the 460efiguys have an intake they “mod” for the Efi, but I think they want like $575 for this. Hell that’s more than some intakes cost and it doesn’t seem like they do much to it. Not to mention, I do not see enough comments about any of their stuff outside of their own website to know if they are any good or just more of the usual bs that’s out there. I have to assume you know a proper solution on this front.

Now let’s talk carb vs Efi. Okay, I am willing to have you correct me on this, but from everything I have ever learned, no carb will ever compete with an fi system for all out versatility, raw power/torque vs efficiency and ability to adjust to conditions and do it with better gas mileage. Enough said? Especially a mass flow sequential firing Efi. Am I wrong? If not, I see no reason on earth to go to carb unless I was wanting to race.

Okay, so going back to what I want to do way back at the top, what are the right answers? What should I do for the first phase Of the simpler stuff (read cheaper)? What is going to get me the best bang for a few bucks initially? Timing gears, smog, exhaust, ecu change, what? I have to assume the ecu change is going to get me the most right from the giddy up? I can’t help but assume mass flow sequential is going to do the most for overall efficiency, gas mileage and even power and torque? I have no idea on the smog stuff and/or the timing gear. Then exhaust?

Then what for phase 2 next year? I will drive over the mountains to get this done right if I need to, but I assume it’s not worth 2 trips (drop off and then back for pick up) for phase 1.

honestly, I am sick of listening to 100 people arguing back and forth, especially when most of them are trying to race or show off. I want to tow. That means low end, not mid or upper end like most of their ideas will lead to. I’d also like to pass a gas station once in a while.

sorry for the long message. I just wanted to give you as much info as possible and help you know where my head is. Thanks for your help.

-Lenn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Ported efi heads, exhaust and bumped fuel can get you to 300 hp. mad porter should chime in soon for the recipy.

beyond that 4.10 gears, but mileage will not improve with any mods.

To have it all you need a modern truck ($$$,$$$.$$)

When I'm moving 10k pounds I get 7 mpg with my 6.7 diesel.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,895 Posts
Start here with the externals.








Scotty J. "AKA" The "Mad Porter"
"EMC 2006" 3rd place finisher
Ported BBF iron head specialist & Aluminum heads from all sources.
Custom ground cams
See our products in the Vendor for sale section
Customized crate engines
ParklandAutoMachine.com
R-H-P.biz
"Parkland Performance Auto Machine" Formerly RHP
(253)-988-6648
Parkland Auto Machine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Don't get bunched-up about types of EFI, for now anyway. No, the sparkly sequential MAF systems are not better for what you are doing. Those features were used by the factory to meet specific emissions and economy spec's for regulations. Real-world is that the control and auto-corrections of EFI are what matter in this use, and the 1.5-3% potential improvement in certain power ranges or economy profiles are not worthwhile, without really sharp re-tuning.

If basic re-tuning for your needs anyway, either an SD system or (easier) a basic aftermarket unit will do the job. A carb is also usable, but you just won't get the advantages that EFI can provide, especially in the mountains or not towing, and you'll still need the/an ECM for the transmission either way. I would suggest only choosing the basic direction of carb or EFI, and leave the specifics for when you know the rest of the plan and package.
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
I think you'll find you EFI 460 has almost 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why don't you start the easy way. Seeing how the exhaust ports are the major drawback on a 460, install headers, "Y" pipe and a good free flowing single exhaust. I have run up and down the rockies with a 95 class A with car in tow, with a complete Banks exhaust system. It did well for a 20,500 package. You may want to consider a little better rear end gear, to get you at 24-2,500 RPMs in OD.

Richard
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.

Scotty, please send me a PM (assuming I will be able to figure out how to read it, lol) on details and cost etc for you to do my motor up to one of your 2 mentioned motors. That sounds perfect for next spring/summer (phase 2). Worth a few trips over the mountains!

Okay, so for right now, #1 a set of dreaded headers, with a dual catback (cats remain?) exhaust.

Q1: Any recommendations on the headers? Hopefully something that won’t burn itself and spark wires, back it’s bolts out regularly, leak all the time, or drag below my frame lowering my clearance for 4 wheelin’. No, I have never had good experiences with headers. Scotty mentions Banks, but damn, they want like $2K for their setup. Holy crap!

Next #2, K&N intake filter and 180 degree thermostat. Easy enough.

Next #3, Bump ignition timing to 12 degrees.

Next #4, Adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

Q2: Brand, type, part number, what exactly recommended? Also, set it to what pressure?

Next #5, Leave the EGR alone and the catalytics remain.

Q3: What about the rest of the smog crap? Remove or not?

That will do it for now, yes? Or did I miss something?

Q4: What about this cam timing gear stuff? Does this apply to my motor or?

Q5: Will the listed above freak the stock computer out? Should I have a computer tune done afterwards (cost $850 locally, ouch)?

Q6: I did not understand on the injectors. They need changed, but not now, later, correct? Or did I get that wrong?

Q7: What kind of hp/torque should I expect after just these changes?

Again thanks guys! Sorry to be so questioning, but we used to have a saying about submarine sailors (which I was one). Put a sub sailor in a padded room with a bowling ball. Within a few hours, he will either have lost it, broke it, or figured a way to F#$& it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,895 Posts
I think you'll find you EFI 460 has almost 400 ft. lbs. of torque. Why don't you start the easy way. Seeing how the exhaust ports are the major drawback on a 460, install headers, "Y" pipe and a good free flowing single exhaust. I have run up and down the rockies with a 95 class A with car in tow, with a complete Banks exhaust system. It did well for a 20,500 package. You may want to consider a little better rear end gear, to get you at 24-2,500 RPMs in OD.

Richard
Comparatively the EFI exhaust ports are quite good (+40cfm) vs. the older carbureted stuff.

For the OP:
Headers and free flowing exhaust are a must with the OEM system back pressure exceeding 4+psi.


Richard makes a great point.
I have a 1997 end of production F250HD with the 3.55's and trying to tow with this in OD when the engine is not in its sweet spot is not ideal.
For 10k pounds you need 4.10's or to run it in drive.

[email protected] is the best way to reach me.
Formerly RHP





Scotty J. "AKA" The "Mad Porter"
"EMC 2006" 3rd place finisher
Ported BBF iron head specialist & Aluminum heads from all sources.
Custom ground cams
See our products in the Vendor for sale section
Customized crate engines
ParklandAutoMachine.com
R-H-P.biz
"Parkland Performance Auto Machine" Formerly RHP
(253)-988-6648
Parkland Auto Machine
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
For the OP:
Headers and free flowing exhaust are a must with the OEM system back pressure exceeding 4+psi.
Deep down I already knew this, I just needed you all to force me to face it. My experiences with headers have always been checkered with issues at best. I don’t ever remember having a set that retightening bolts regularly wasn’t the norm. Leaks at the collector was a bi-annual event. No matter what paint was used, burn off was immediate and you could expect rust to follow. Forget ever changing spark plugs again, they just don’t make wrenches in those shapes needed. All that, and don’t expect spark wires to last long. No matter how you loomed them, the heat from the headers and the inevitable wire that falls and touches the headers. I hope you can see why I needed a hard push to use them. I’m getting too old to be fixing that stuff constantly.

With that said, I have not raced or had headers in over 25 years (mid 90’s). Some of the locals say all those problems have been corrected these days. Is this true??? When I see a set of headers, other than the much thicker head flanges, they look the same to me. What’s the truth here guys? What should I expect going in?

Richard makes a great point.
I have a 1997 end of production F250HD with the 3.55's and trying to tow with this in OD when the engine is not in its sweet spot is not ideal.
For 10k pounds you need 4.10's or to run it in drive.
Yup, and rattle_snake said it too. Honestly, I had already been thinking about that for the bigger 10K load. I just wasn’t sure since big blocks usually like lower rpm’s better for longer life. But, for that 10K load, I think I need to put the 4.10’s on the to-do list for next spring.

As a side note, I don’t use the OD much when towing. Pretty much only in the slower zones (up to 60mph) and only if nice flat level good highway.
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Okay, I need a confirmation on what I should be doing right now to make sure I got it right please.

#1, Headers and dual exhaust -or- Y pipe free flowing single (which?).

#2, K&N intake filter.

#3, 180 degree thermostat.

#4, Bump ignition timing to 12 degrees.

#5, Adjustable fuel pressure regulator. (I have a question on this, see below).

#6, Leave the EGR alone!

Did I miss anything or get anything wrong? This doesn’t seem like much. But I did ask how to just release the hp/torque that was already there being held back, so?

What kind of hp/torque should I expect after just these changes?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,895 Posts
You pretty much have it. I run 15 initial on my 1997 F250Hd short bed 2wd but I do not tow.

I have the banks system and have done the above.
65+ hp at the wheels.

The truck runs significantly better than when in an OEM state.

300 to 320 flywheel perhaps.





Scotty J. "AKA" The "Mad Porter"
"EMC 2006" 3rd place finisher
Ported BBF iron head specialist & Aluminum heads from all sources.
Custom ground cams
See our products in the Vendor for sale section
Customized crate engines
ParklandAutoMachine.com
R-H-P.biz
"Parkland Performance Auto Machine" Formerly RHP
(253)-988-6648
Parkland Auto Machine
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I still have some questions, I hope I am not being annoying.

Question #1, Do I go with a dual exhaust or the Y pipe free flowing single? Any real difference in either for performance or cost? NOTE: I do want to keep the exhaust quiet. Suggestions on muffler?

Question #2, Reading back and forth between several threads, I got a little confused. Do the catalytic converters stay or go?

Question #3, A quick look on Summit shows only Banks, Hedman, Doug Thorley, and Hooker headers. Given my bad checkered past with headers, any suggestions here would be appreciated.

Question #3.5, Related to the above, Banks has the exhaust system (headers) and power-pak system which looks to be the exhaust and ”stinger” system combined. -IF- this ends up going towards Banks, is the power-pak worth the extra $600-$800? Most of the extras are things I know nothing about, do not appear to be in the listed recommendations from you guys for my mods, but are things I typically see talked about as good things. ???

Question #4, Any recommendations on the adjustable fuel pressure regulator? Brand, particular model/part etc. Also, is this self controlled or do I need a particular pressure setting etc?

Question #5, I got that the EGR should be left alone and already asked about the catalytic converters, but what about the smog pump and any other smog crap? Should any of it be removed, modified, left alone, or whatever? I don’t care about inspections and other bs. All I care about here is best hp, torque, and fuel economy combination. Period!

Question #6, I have to ask or it will drive me nuts not knowing. What is all this stuff about factory retarded cam timing and changing it I see in so many other threads? Is this a should do, shouldn’t do, doesn’t apply to me and my motor, myth, or just what’s the deal on this? I saw so much on it in other threads, I truly was expecting this to be something someone would suggest to me in thread and was surprised when no one mentioned it.

Question #7, I mentioned before, I got confused going back and forth in the thread links. Am I supposed to be changing the injectors or not? -IF- I understood correctly, I don’t change them now, but do change them later when the heads, intake, and internals all get done. Someone please clarify.

Question #8, Lastly, with the changes I am supposed to be doing now, do I need to have the ecu reprogrammed or tuned, or just leave it. I am not sure how even these minor changes you guys recommended will affect the stock Efi computer. Guidance is needed here please.

Again, thanks for all the inputs from everyone and I am sorry I am so long winded, OCD, and just plain annoying. I do appreciate all the help.
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Scotty replied while I was writing my last post. Looks like question #3 got answered and Banks headers are the suggestion. So now it just comes down to question #3.5 and the exhaust system vs power-pak system?

what should I expect with the banks? Are all the old headaches fixed or should I still expect them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Scotty replied while I was writing my last post. Looks like question #3 got answered and Banks headers are the suggestion. So now it just comes down to question #3.5 and the exhaust system vs power-pak system?

what should I expect with the banks? Are all the old headaches fixed or should I still expect them?
I've had the Banks PowerPack exhaust system on my motorhome for 20 years. No problems. NO header gaskets to fail. Banks uses a 5/8" flange and all parts are 308 SS. Low end torque is better served with "Y" pipe and large single exhaust. Do it right, get the whole package.

Richard
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,895 Posts
Scotty replied while I was writing my last post. Looks like question #3 got answered and Banks headers are the suggestion. So now it just comes down to question #3.5 and the exhaust system vs power-pak system?

what should I expect with the banks? Are all the old headaches fixed or should I still expect them?
Call me. I am a banks authorized dealer and can answer these questions...



SJ
 

·
Registered
1990 F-250 XLT 460 EFI
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you to everyone who helped in this thread, Mad Porter, rs7201, PSIG, and rattle_snake. I appreciate you time.

Here is where we landed;

#1, Banks Power power-pak which included the recommended high performance intake filter.

#2, Aeromotive 13103 adjustable fuel pressure regulator set to 46-48 lbs.

#3, 180 degree thermostat.

#4, Bump ignition timing to 12 degrees.

That’s it. Should bump me up over 300hp and 475 ft/lb. If I missed anything or have any of my numbers wrong, please chime in.

Thanks again guys!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,895 Posts
Hey Scotty this cam flat tappet and how much lift, works w stock E4OD-torque converter
"I grind a custom cam based on the voodoo lobes.
207 / 219 113 LSA in at 108 50 states emissions compliant and ecm friendly. " ?
We use 3 different flat tappet cam grinds in the EFI stock stroke 460s

206 / 218 low lift comp lobes for applications with out cylinder head work, guide topping or valve spring upgrade. >.500"

207 / 219 for our 400 hp work engine.
213 / 227 for the slightly hotter work / play toy combination. .500" to .550" ish

All three will pass Cali emissions.
All three will work with the OEM convertor and are ecm friendly.






Scotty J. "AKA" The "Mad Porter"
"EMC 2006" 3rd place finisher
Ported BBF iron head specialist & Aluminum heads from all sources.
Custom ground cams
See our products in the Vendor for sale section
Customized crate engines
ParklandAutoMachine.com
R-H-P.biz
"Parkland Performance Auto Machine" Formerly RHP
(253)-988-6648
Parkland Auto Machine
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top