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Man I don't eve know where to start!!! We put together a Ford powered air boat These boats mostley have small chevy's or Cadillacs for car engines and rarely have Ford's in them. We wanted to put a Ford in this one "cause we is Ford peoples". This has not been easy, or fun!
The first motor was a 460 with iron heads, decent cam, good headers,intake and carb. This engine ran great, just a little on the heavy side. The first upgrade was TFS streets. The first problem was they were ordered with solid roller springs by accident (my fault, clicked wrong head an Summit.com). Took heads off to change springs and decided to put a stroker crank in it while it was off the boat. This engine ran great for about 40 hours, rarily seeing 4000 rpms and then the altinater bolt vibrates out, water pump belt falls off, engine burns up, melts a couple of pistons, warps heads, etc. etc.
Engine #2 complete 514 short block same cam, (wasn't hurt) new roller lifters, new rocker arms, heads milled and checked, 9 qut. pan and pick-up. another 40 hours or so and it spins 4,5,6,7,8 mains and rods. obviously an oil starvation problem, but why? check out oil gallys for and pump for problems nothing stands out except the oil pressure never got over 50#'s not even cold.
Engine #3. Use the 68 block from engine 1, all new internals, nothing is carried over from old engine except oil pan, and heads. Had 2 hours on it,.....yes 2 hours, and the same thing happened!!! WHAT THE HECK IS CAUSING THIS!?!?! Could it be the pickup to close to the bottom of the pan? This engine rarely see's 4000 rpms We are tearing this motor down this weekend (hopefully), the first thing we'll loof at is the pickup -to-pan distance. Is there anything else to look for??? Please help, any info is appreciated.......Wade
 

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1) What were your bearing clearances at?

2) Was the block line bored/honed?

3) When you check your pan to pick-up clearance, make sure it's 3/8"-1/2" from the bottom of the pan...

4) What oil were you using?

Let us know if you find anything...




Doug... 8)
 
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My 2c

Note: new roller lifters

Kind of wonder which way they are installed?
 

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There was a thread earlier that I cannot find. It was descussing oil pump, oil pan/oiling issues with boat applications.

It was Lem. Paul and Dave I think if I remember correctly. All of those guys have experiece with boat stuff. They are your best bet for help.

If they don't see the thread we can pm them.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the replys, I'm sorry to say that I didn't check the clearances because it was a crate short block and we told them what the engine was for. We did put new hydraulic rollers in it with same result. I'll update ASAP
 

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I did have a customer with a 454 Chevy that was having a weird oil pressure problem last year and it was totally a problem with the oil pan/pickup. With hot oil his engine would have good oil pressure at idle but then as soon as the engine hit a critical rpm 4700 in this case the pressure would instantly drop a bunch. You could back off to say 4500 or 4600 and it would behave fine. This was an engine with tight clearances .002 rods and mains. Finally he took the engine out of the boat and we did some dyno testing to find the problem. Switching oil pans cured it. He had been running a Milodon boat pan. We tried a Hamburgers and it was slightly better but a STOCK 4 quart in the sump Chevelle pan was the best pan that would fit in the boat. Pressure is now rock steady and you can hold it at 5500rpm for as long as you like, no problem. I think that the small aftermarket pickup could not handle the hot oil as effectively as a larger stock pickup. We were doing all of our testing with the oil in the pan at 200 degrees minimum. It didn't care if we ran more or less oil either, here's a video of the engine running with the better of the two aftermarket pans.



I just wonder if your engine isn't doing something similar when the oil gets hot?
 

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Dave's right about the STOCK baffled pan for a B.B. Chevy for marine use - I've used a front sump CJ style pan with a CJ pump on a B.B. Ford and had no problems. It was a CANTON with a deeper sump but, otherwise the same dimensions as a production CJ.
I used the Canton windage screen too however, I don't think that made the pan work.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Wow after reading the posts from Dave and Randy I'm almost possitive it's the pan. What would cause this all of a sudden? When it had the stock pan it ran fine, no problems. When we put the stroker motor in it we put the 9quart Milodon Pan on it for insurance (front sump) with windage tray, what would make this engine run out of oil??? We also put a high pressure/ high volume pump on it and it never got over 50 pounds of oil pressure, it also fluxuated real bad. We didn't get a chance to tear it down this weekend but when I do I'll take pics of everything, even the bottom of the pan so maybe this can be remedied. This is becoming embarrrassing, and expensive!! On another note should I be using a hydraulic roller with the TFS streets?? I've read on here about some problems with guide plates, and rocker arms. Thanks for the help...Wade
 

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I hear those square box type milodon pickups are bad newzz (not kennels, Michael Vick...). If it were me, I'd try to get a stock pickup screen made onto a tube that will feed your pump and put the stock pickup 3/8" off the bottom of the sump.

And hydraulic roller is fine so long as the springs are correct and you fully cycle the engine while watching closely to make sure the pushrods don't hit the holes in the heads through which they pass.
 

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I ran a Milodon square pickup on my last engine and spun a rod bearing on the chassis dyno. Paul Kane and I were just talking about this the other day as I was inquiring about one of his pumps. He sells a pickup kit that sounds like a much better design and might help you out. After thinking about it all I'm thinking that when I installed the vacuum pump it caused the oil pump to work harder and the small pickup combined with the bad design of the Milodon pickup caused the bearing to spin trashing the crank and rod. Here's a link to his site.

http://www.highflowdynamics.com/
 

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Last year I did a 460 for a customer with a jet boat. It was a very mild build with a flat tappet hydraulic cam, D3VE heads etc but it runs great in his boat and he's very pleased. I think it made all of about 375 horsepower.



Here's a video of it sitting on the dyno idling after doing some testing that evening. Actually I was playing around with his carburetor and some bogus carburetor spacer trying to fix a vacuum leak. This engine has a Milodon front sump pan with a stock 460 pump and pickup(press in from the bottom kind). This pan is just like a stocker except for having a baffle across the back of the sump to help control the oil during acceleration. It holds excellent oil pressure and this is with hot oil. It would hold about 60psi all the time.
 

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Oil Pan

I also have one of these 9 quart front sump pans with the baffle and the small Milodon pick up. I also have a MPG windage tray. I have 60 psi intial start up and once the temp is up 180-200(water) idle (800-1000) 25-30psi and back up to 55-65 psi at 6000-6500 RPM to race. Just cut my oil filter apart tonite after weekends race and there was nothing to note, clean and no bearing material. I am getting a little scared with this post so I am seriouly considering dropping the pan and using the pick up from Paul's Stage 1 pump that I got.

FWIW

PS: The oil pump has the shim kit in it and the oil is 25W50. Clearances are 0.0027 on the rods and 0.0030 on the mains. Block ported as Per Highflow website. I have had some lifter issues early on which were puking oil out between the lifter body and plunger almost enough to flood over the valley with barely any oil coming out the pushrod, changed them out with half the seepage, so far so good.
 

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I was running a rear sump pan with the small square pickup. As long as the open areas of the pickup screen are equal to or greater than the pickup tube then I would think there wouldn't be any problems.
 

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I have heard that the milodon pickups aren't good, and that they have caused oil starvation in some engines.

Currently, I am running a milodon pickup attached to a High Flow Dynamics stage 1 pump in my 545. With no scraper or windage tray and a 4.5" crank, the oil pressure is rock seady at all times...at engine speeds over 6500 rpm, too. This is with VR1 20w50, and now VR1 10w30.

The pickup seems to be well capable of flowing the oil volume required in this case.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The pick-up was ordered with the pan, so I'm sure it's the Milodon pick-up.
We haven't had a chance to pull it apart yet but I'm getting stir crazy waiting for the both of us to get our schedules together. We need two people to pull the prop guard off so we can get to the engine, after that it pops right out. I will be getting in touch with Paul Kane for the next pump.
This WILL be the last time we do this for this boat!!! :evil: Thanks for all the replies. Nice videos Dave, thats what I'm looking for. GREG, you posted some oiling mods that you did on the 545, I think you plugged one of the front oil gallies or you put a plug in it with a small hole drilled in it? I can't remember If you want shoot me the post and I'll re-read it and try this on the next engine..........Wade
 

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Its not the peak RPM its the sustained.. As a car engine, it would tweak to 3800-4500 for seconds and cruise at 1800 to 2500....

As a boat engine it cruises at 4000 RPM. Its pumping all the oil up on top the engine, and it cant drain it back. Its not that anything speacial need be done for main clearance, you just don't have enough drain, to allow the free flow to the top that your getting. Restrict lifter flow, restrict pushrod bleed... and more oil will stay in the pan, and or run more pan!

No great or magical tricks are required to a street car, drag car, etc... when the thing is expected to stay below 7000 RPM.

But none of these engines are expected to hold 4000 RPM for 20 minutes across a lake either. Its not stress, its a matter of flow...........
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Kim, I here what you're saying but... we ran a stock pan/ stock pump on theis same boat at the same RPM range and had no problems. It was'nt until we put the 9 qut. pan and pick-up that we had this problem. I have been in a jet boat witha 460, no oiling mods running 6500 for20 minutes up the intercoastal waterway trying to outrun a thunder storm, that was 15 yeaes ago and that boat is just now getting a new engine because of salt corrosion. In the airboat we just romp it to about 4200 to get it on a plain and then cruise at 2800. The only time you realy sustain higher RPM is when you are crossing dry land, even then the stock 460 had no problems. We really just wanted to lighten the boat up some by using aluminum heads, it just got out of control with the stroker crank and stuff... live and learn. I just don't want this to happen again.......Wade
 

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kim said:
Its not the peak RPM its the sustained.. As a car engine, it would tweak to 3800-4500 for seconds and cruise at 1800 to 2500....

As a boat engine it cruises at 4000 RPM. Its pumping all the oil up on top the engine, and it cant drain it back. Its not that anything speacial need be done for main clearance, you just don't have enough drain, to allow the free flow to the top that your getting. Restrict lifter flow, restrict pushrod bleed... and more oil will stay in the pan, and or run more pan!

No great or magical tricks are required to a street car, drag car, etc... when the thing is expected to stay below 7000 RPM.

But none of these engines are expected to hold 4000 RPM for 20 minutes across a lake either. Its not stress, its a matter of flow...........
Kim, it's possible to pump all the oil out of the pan on any high rpm engine with the wrong combo of parts. My 460 has an 8yr old engine with a m84dhvs pump and I drive the car down the highway at 3500+ rpm all the time. My car never has less than 65psi cruising and still runs 80psi cold idle with Mobil1 oil. The lack of pressure and the fluctuations sure would indicate a dry pan. Most likely the pump is cavatating from the lack of pickup clearance and some air is introduced to the bearings at load. This engine is connected to a huge prop so it must have a load on it always and would like oil. IMAO- Tres...
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Te blades on this thing are 70 inches and a foot wide, so yeah, there is always a load on it but once its on plain it's not that much of a load, and it cruises effortlessly.
 

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What are the rod bearing clearancs, and or what are the rod side clearance. Where, the stock 460 stuff might have been fine (tight even) the new stroker stuff might have enough clearance that not only is it stressing oil flow capability, the increased clearance, coupled with the increased stroke is actually slinging (sucking) oil out the rods and removing oil from main feed faster than its getting in. Oil pressure monitor up on the lifter galley, might not show the cavitation at mains and rods due to sentripital forces.

Then again... I could be full of crap!
 
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