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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So here's where I'm at. I have a 95 F250 I use to tow my 26' fifth wheel.

Specs are the usual : stock size tires (235/85/16), 4.10 gears, e4od ( rebuilt back in 05, hanging on strong).

92639


It's at somewhere north of 230k miles. It just won't do it anymore. Every hill is a wot & pray affair. Trailer is 26', gvw is 7700lb. I don't have actual weights but it's not like it's going to be out of whack by a large margin.

So I'd like to talk what I want vs. what I actually need. I don't tow a lot so I can say what I think I want, but be completely off base and waste all my money.

What I think I want:

3rd gear 65 mph is about 3100rpm. 70 is 3200ish. I'd like to be able to pull this in OD on flatter ground, which puts me 70 is 2500ish.

I want all the torque. I keep saying I would be happy with 550lb @ 3300 rpm, but that's a wild *** guess. Where do you want torque peak? I assume near your typical running speed, right? Wind is a bitch. A 20mph headwind, which I seem to drive into no matter where I go and when, puts a serious hurting on my rig. Like 65 is a struggle on flat ground.

What would I really be happy with and what's the best way to get there? A 501, 521 and 545 kit are roughly the same price. They're all ~$1700 plus 200 for balancing. Is there a downside to going big? From the numbers Scotty puts out, I don't think I'd be happy with a non-stroker, budget build. I'm open to a custom cam if the benefits are worth the cost.
I plan on home porting the lower intake as is often discussed here. I need to find out more about the bowl blending on the f3 heads. I don't want to get exotic and expensive. As stock as I can stay, but do what is necessary.

I know about Scott, and have emailed him in the past but I really don't want to monopolize his time. I could bury him with a million emails, lol. I want to come up with a real plan before I start to bug him. I have read a lot of his builds.

I will be running a stinger pimp ecu, as I have a similar system on my toy and don't like the stock Ford stuff. Staying batch fire for the time being.

I have to find a local machine shop. I'm in SE Wisconsin if anyone has any recommendations. The last guy I talked to basically told me to go away... Mostly because I wasn't rebuilding a sbc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Fwiw, my current plans are:
Probably 502 kit. (.030 over) Currently out of stock at chp, I will definitely discuss with Scott as well. Zero deck (ish, -.0005 to +.0015, still need to determine). -22cc dish, compression in the 8.8-9.5 range.
Haven't determined oil clearances yet.
Cam flat tappet otherwise undetermined.
Appropriate springs. Stock rockers. Most likely stock valves, if reusable, otherwise play by ear if parts are needing to be purchased anyways.
"Budget bowl blending" if I can figure out what is actually needed. Maybe I can buy this info from Scotty since it seems to be kinda hush hush.

Home port lower intake, as Scotty has shown before. I understand the upper doesn't have a lot of need for "improvement". Throttle body is undetermined. Not really sure if it even needs to be upgraded.

Mostly stock everything else. Kaase rear main. Stock oil pump. Fuel Injectors to match of course. Most likely need to do fuel pumps as well.

Scotty shows I believe, similar maybe with a lot more knowledge, putting out mid to high 500's tq. I'm not sure what not running the stock efi will afford me on camshaft.
 

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Great plan, to plan. 101 choices to make here, but keep your focus for a good complimentary package of stuff to reach your specific goals. Up-front, IMO one of your best choices is to move to aftermarket fully-tunable ECM. This will allow extracting both power and economy (efficiency either way) from your combo and real-world conditions. This capability will also reduce the need for other upgrades by releasing some of the potential of your current setup. EFI tuning for max power with max economy is one of my addictions.

String of random thoughts: Your fuel pumps have plenty of capacity, but I'd install fresh ones to ensure good long-term ability to do that. Else, test actual flow of what you have at your actual pressure (easy, and every project should do this) to see if you need any changes at all. By calculation, 550TQ at 3200 requires about 100 lph, well within the excellent stock two-pump capabilities - in good condition.

Anything for efficiency helps both power and economy, so all of your home-style incremental porting and improvements always help, if targeting that speed and flow range goal. Don't forget the rest of the package, such as the exhaust. Displacement can help increase your target power at your target speeds, or potentially reducing those speeds as a goal.

To throw a new wrench in this, consider if you have sufficient power for getting up to speed already; re-configuring your current engine to operate more efficiently at your actual speeds (e.g., torque peak at "3200ish") can do as well if properly geared and fed. Configured to cruise at (random example) 4000 rpm, and hitting max efficiency at that speed, it will be happier, more powerful and more economical at that rpm than it is now, as the whole package is now intentionally working together. There is more than one way to skin this cat, and a different perspective to consider. U-Haul trucks ran 4400 rpm back and forth across the US for decades without issue. RPM is not your enemy nor the enemy of economy, if the whole package is designed to use it. If rpm makes your skin crawl, get a Diesel, supercharger, or buy cubes.

OD gear can help, if your engine is making the necessary power at that speed, and is also at max efficiency by your design. Your engine could be a dog at 5000, and you don't care. ;) That's not what you need or in the goals. Plan your plan. No matter how you take it, if you leave ego and assumptions at the door and stick to the goals of your plan, you will happily reach them. :cool:(y) Have fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I just bought the stinger/megasquirt. Should have it in a few days. Spartan 2 wb to mirror the setup on my other truck. The other truck is a project, currently wiring it.

I do plan on running a fuel pressure transducer so I can keep an eye on it. My future plans are once I outgrow the edis on my project and go cop, move that over to this truck and switch to sequential. It's not a priority though.

I found a couple local machine shops to check out.

What are the practical limit of compression with heavy loads? I'd like to daily on 87 and tow on 89 or 91. I'm upper Midwest, so not high elevation. Id like to think I could get away with low 9s with good cam consideration.

I'm not scared of rpm, aside from noise considerations. My current exhaust is borderline too loud though, it will probably get louder with headers. I have stock manifolds, straight 3" to the largest magna flow muffler they made l and 3" tailpipe out the far back. no cat. Headers will be part of the new engine.
 

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My future plans are once I outgrow the edis on my project and go cop, move that over to this truck and switch to sequential.
I won't go into the background, but the powerful EDIS coil packs are tough to beat for performance. Whle either type can obviously work, the COP coils were actually adopted for EMR emission and cost concerns, not improvement in spark energy. There are better upgrades for the hassle and money, so I'd agree to keep the COPs on the back burner for now. You would also ditch the EDIS controller and fire the packs directly from the ECM for simplicity and maximum control. Simple and efficient, although any option can again do the job.

Likewise, 98% of your performance will come with the electronic control manipulation, with usually disappointing gains from full-sequential. The sequential legend (like the COP legend) has grown to ridiculous proportions with little basis in facts. Wait to tackle that later and when the bulk of base tuning is conquered, in order to see and manipulate the small benefits it can offer. I'd suggest starting simple, get it almost to perfection, then add advanced per-cylinder tuning if you're bored by then. :geek:

What are the practical limit of compression with heavy loads?
The engine's optimum static compression, ignition timing, etc, are primarily controlled by your cam timing and related path parts (intake, heads, valves, exhaust, etc) that determine volumetric efficiency and resulting effective compression at any point. Talk to your favorite BBF guru for guidance. Always choose your fuel first (and any limitations it will bring) when beginning an engine build plan. You are on the right track!
 

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If you are willing to tune an aftermarket EFI system yourself...
I would consider to abandon the EFI style heads and intake/headers they mandate. Then you have lots of options for good heads. Weld in bungs for injectors on whatever manifold.
AFR heads on a 545 would be my route. Forged dish pistons (for AFRs) to get comp in low 9s and custom cam from scotty. I think you could build something in the 550 hp 650 tq range with a cam that would make the numbers at lower rpms.

That said perhaps you may be happy with less. Something like my mild 466 making 425/525 would still be a big step up from what you have now (245/400, or at 230k less than that)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Given better fundage I would absolutely go that route. We'll call that "step 2".. Lol.
 

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I run a 528 in a 1995 class A motorhome, with car in tow @ 20,500 #. Upped the compression to 9:1 with D cup pistons and 0 deck. Mild Hydraulic Lunati cam. Full Banks Power pack exhaust. No porting done as I have the RPMs limited to 4000 on the TwEECer tuner. The EFI intake flows well at low RPM. I did back cut the valves. In my case I had a set of 30 lbs per Hr. 4 port injectors on hand that I plugged in, using the stock fuel pressure regulator. The tuner goes on the stock EEC-IV J port. I paid the designer/builder of the TwEECer $250 to write the tune.
No problem running down the highway in OD @ about 2400 RPMs.
The ol motorhome grunts up the Rockies with the 18 wheelers.

Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I run a 528 in a 1995 class A motorhome, with car in tow @ 20,500 #. Upped the compression to 9:1 with D cup pistons and 0 deck. Mild Hydraulic Lunati cam. Full Banks Power pack exhaust. No porting done as I have the RPMs limited to 4000 on the TwEECer tuner. The EFI intake flows well at low RPM. I did back cut the valves. In my case I had a set of 30 lbs per Hr. 4 port injectors on hand that I plugged in, using the stock fuel pressure regulator. The tuner goes on the stock EEC-IV J port. I paid the designer/builder of the TwEECer $250 to write the tune.
No problem running down the highway in OD @ about 2400 RPMs.
The ol motorhome grunts up the Rockies with the 18 wheelers.

Richard

Good to hear. What kind of mileage do you pull down? I'm lucky to see 6 in my current config.

Did you change out the throttle body?
 

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I would consider swapping out the E4OD trans for a 6R80. Given the weight and increased torque that well behaving E4OD will become the weak link.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
For sure. If the 6r80 swap was a little more commonplace I'd consider it. I love that trans. I've had it in newer trucks and have nothing bad to say about it. Just the swap market isn't there yet. I'm hoping someday not too far from now though.
 

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The actual engine to transmission adaption and control of the transmission has been solved. While the two companies aren't mainstream like Holley or Edelbrock they are well known and established. Two items that do require some creativity is the shifter mechanics and crossmember mount.

Yes it would be nice if someone like Holley stepped up and offered 6R80 control in their EFI system. With Holley's shift to cheaper Chinese products (TerminatorX) I don't see it happening.
 

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Good to hear. What kind of mileage do you pull down? I'm lucky to see 6 in my current config.

Did you change out the throttle body?
Before with stock 460 and Banks Power pack, I averaged 7 MPG @ 62 MPH. I still average 7 MPG @ 62 MPH.
Saw no reason to change the throttle body. Very rarely do I have my foot to the floor.
I seldom turn over 3,500 RPMs. Normally I lift at 3,000 and let the tranny move up a gear.
If you are worried about your E4OD, there are plenty of pieces/parts out there for added torque.
All I did to the tranny was add a voltage divider to the wire (white w/yellow stripe) that controls the line pressure, to get firm shifts. It also made the torque converter clutch lock up firm.

Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
No I'm honestly not worried much about the e4od. It was rebuilt, and I've been inside it to the pump and valve body, all the current "good stuff" things are already done to it. I've got a giant tru-cool cooler on it. Maybe it could use a better converter, but we'll see. My camper isn't huge and I don't plan on anything bigger.

It's just those new 6 speeds make everything so much nicer. 4.2:1 first gear gets things rolling so nice. And it's probably the whole engine package, but those trucks never fell out of their power bands on shifts like mine does now.
 

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That is the beauty of the 6 speed. Low first gear and close ratio spacing while still offering overdrive. With the right gearing and knowledge of your torque curve you can keep the rpms in the sweet spot at cruise speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
So I've continued doing a lot of reading and a little buying. My pimpxshift is scheduled to be here Monday after a little snafu. Spartan2 single wideband, and I'll be adding a fuel pressure sensor. Eventually I'll be changing the configuration up a bit to get rid of Found on road dead failure points, like the tfi and the psom. I know the remote ccd tfi has proven pretty reliable but I just don't trust it. The pimp allows pretty much any ignition you can imagine.

I'm picking up a spare engine this week to rebuild.

Still planning 521. Like Scott's previously shown build, the goal is ~9.2:1.

I'm having a difficult time finding machine shops that aren't so slammed that they even want to talk to me. And when they do, they're not easy to talk with. I've got 2 more places to call.

Goal is still 550-600 lbft.

I'm only going to do minimal head work, it gets expensive fast, and it looks to be a fairly bad roi, beyond the basics. I'll clean up the lower myself and do more research on what I can do to the heads myself (the low hanging fruit).

If for some reason I want more power late on, it'll just be aftermarket heads and intake. But I kinda think I'll already be at the upper curve of what will be reasonable for my chassis. And at some point a diesel makes more sense as much as I don't like them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So I've got my pimpxshift, and going through it prior to installing it.

This is my first go around really with my own tuning on efi. Stinger provides a base tune, but just looking at it, it seems really lean. This is still my stock 460 at this point. If so, how you you recommend running it? note, I haven't installed this yet. Just getting things ready. from my understanding I'd want to start bringing in more fuel around 65kpa than is shown here.

92745
 

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Once you get the vehicle on the road you need to log you’re drive then review and adjust as necessary. Ideally for WOT pulls you’d want the vehicle on a chassis dyno but for a mostly stock 460 it might not be necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Once you get the vehicle on the road you need to log you’re drive then review and adjust as necessary. Ideally for WOT pulls you’d want the vehicle on a chassis dyno but for a mostly stock 460 it might not be necessary.
A dyno isn't out of the question for the next engine but this one is getting the backyard treatment. I'm just looking for loose guidance on afr preferences. Are you familiar with the pimp/megasquirt?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Also, I did end up picking up a spare engine to rebuild. $400, had it pulled out and in the back of my truck in 2 hours.
92750


I'll be pulling the heads and working on them first.
 
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