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…This is still my stock 460 at this point. If so, how you you recommend running it? note, I haven't installed this yet. Just getting things ready. from my understanding I'd want to start bringing in more fuel around 65kpa than is shown here.
Beginning a tune is more involved than first thought, but the foundation is set well here. Most important is to get your system settings right (inputs, outputs, calibrations, etc) sitting at your desk with cups of coffee.

Next, base tunes are sometimes purposely inaccurate, but have values to simply hold the place, in order to prevent tune corruption (no value = the ECM gets confused). So, don't take any default values as necessarily significant to your setup. An example could be the legendary 14.7:1, which is a reference point (stoichiometric or Lambda 1.0), but not good for either power or economy. It is rarely used in real-world tunes except for emissions regulations.

Technically, you do not ever tune to an AFR. I know, that's a common belief, but it's backwards. You test and tune to find the best AFR to use at that speed and load, and then you use it as a target.

After first start and warmup, you logically step through initial tuning of idle for both most efficient fuel and best timing. Then set your warm startup settings for best restarts (later cold startup and warmup are based on the tuned table and warm start settings). Then begin working on the off-idle areas, in order to find best performance by engine feedback. Note at no time are we tuning to an AFR, but rather to best engine operation from logs and feedback.

Once we are done with a tuning phase, e.g., idle, we can then read the AFRs produced with best running. Now we have good AFR targets to use in our corrections table like the one you posted. ;)

This can all get very deep as you move from basic to advanced tuning, and I'll see about shooting you some good references of proven methods for street-tuners (same as dyno tuners, but different parameters and methods). You can do this!

PS: Where on the planet does your generally truck live?
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I do understand most of that, as far as not tuning to an afr. But isn't it a good starting point? At least, a starting point in general?

I'm in SE Wisconsin.

My understanding is the bulk of the tune is already in place from stinger and they do in fact offer logged tuning and troubleshooting as part of the purchase. However, I'd prefer to suffer on my own and learn how and what instead of handing problems off.

Their product essentially is a customized ms3x with a microsquirt module for trans. Although I guess technically all megasquirt products are customized products, lol.
 

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The primary value of a "base tune" is the settings, not the values in any tables. Those are for you to find. Indeed, you can start almost anywhere with tables. Popular is a "wedge" table with rich AFRs at the top (high load), descending to lean at the bottom, or another is a safe AFR everywhere, such as 13.5 for stability, then start tuning each section of the table (idle, high idle, cruise, tip-in/accel, WOT, etc), leaner or richer for best efficiency and performance.

Keep in-mind, the only excuse for a full table of guessed or rough values is to allow you to leave the driveway before you've tuned up to it. This is exciting, but premature IMO, and I prefer to incrementally tune from the bottom-up in order to have a much better idea and tables for this engine and fuel before I ever go there. No surprises and very safe and quick. That's me. Do your thing.

In any case, it's just to get going, and then progressively tune to faster and higher loads. The benefit to this approach is mostly that you get a solid sense of what the engine likes to perform best, in a predictive sense. With a solid tune from idle on-up, you will already know what it will want for timing and fuel by the time you get to WOT, as you get a preview of the trends by tuning from the bottom-up. Not as thrilling or exciting (terrifying?) as full-throttle on un-tuned timing and fuel, but much safer and quicker. Call me a wuss, but I rarely hurt engines, and I'm hauling *** before others are half-way there.

While not as critical for grocery-getters, this type of process or method makes tuning power-adder engines and other risky setups much quicker and very much safer. Do your thing, and the most beneficial thing at this point is to just do it. Hands-on experience is, by far, the best and quickest teacher. Have fun, and if you're not having fun, you need to do it differently. :cool:

David

PS: Sorry, I don't have anyone I could personally recommend in SE Cheeseland. Tip #47: Log everything. View the logs in MegaLogViewer. Logs are your diagnostic window into how the engine is responding at any given moment or condition, and provides indicators of what it wants (or doesn't want) and why. On the street, it will be your direct replacement for dyno sheets and data. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Pulled the trigger on banks headers, #48827.
96+ CA emissions to get away from all the air tubes. I'll have to modify the y pipe a little bit for the o2 position and possibly the rear flange.

Psig, I'm very interested in reading whatever you want to send my way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Does anyone know what the fitting is for the egr tube on the drivers side manifold is?
I need to plug it off, it is some type of flare fitting. I assume it is an inverted flare fitting but I don't have anything big enough on hand to verify size.

I understand the hardware banks sends is garbage, but I am having a difficult time finding good stainless 12 point hardware. Will regular flange bolts (non reduced diameter 6 point stuff) work? Or what else have you guys used? This is definitely in the rust belt.

I've had some OK luck with yellow zinc coated hardware in suspension, but unsure it'll work well on the heater hardware.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
Well since someone actually read this...
I got the stinger pimpxshift installed about a month ago and have driven it a little bit. I'm pretty happy with it so far! Trans tuning is pretty touchy. I don't have any real tuning experience but I have a thread going on another forum that a few people are getting into. A lot of good stuff so far.
I don't remember what I used for the egr fitting. I want to say I used a 1/2" or 3/4" NPT stainless bushing and turned a bevel into it for the seat, and just put a plug into that to close it off.
Also, the reduced diameter bolts are definitely required.

Also, I accidentally winged the stock 460 to about 4850 RPM on a unintentionally delayed 2-3 shift. Oof.

I've got it handled now, the predictive shift timing makes a big difference and I turned the rpm limits down to 4400!

What else? Umm.. I hate the way banks designed the headers. The y pipe connection is directly under the torque converter drain/inspection hole. They had all sorts of places to put it.. And they chose there.

I haven't touched the replacement engine yet. Every time I have money saved to play with it, something more important craps the bed.
 

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Good to hear you are making positive incremental progress! Like climbing out of a hole, the more progress you make, the quicker it is.😅 If I had only one suggestion to help new tuners get good results (besides studying basic engine theory), would be to emphasize my last post on tuning for efficiency and performance.

This relates to "forum" tuning, in that a lot of the help you get is directed, meaning some will say to use a certain AFR, or that you're too lean or rich. Please don't let the blind lead the blind. Without data from logs and other references (spark plug reading, MAP response, timing tests, etc), or knowing your specific fuel and how your engine uses it, there is no way a reader can suggest valid info.

Yes, you can use generalized AFRs to get it running well enough to begin tuning, as mentioned earlier, but that's about it. Some forum help is good, but we never tune to AFRs. We tune to peak efficiency and best performance, regardless of AFR readings. Weird, eh?

Peak efficiency translates to best torque, or horsepower, or economy, or however we are using that efficiency. Efficiency is determined by engine's response to values, as detailed in the data. "It runs good" is useless, as until you find peak efficiency, you can't know how good that is.;)

Once you find the peak efficiency in a certain mode (load, rpm, temperatures, acceleration, MPG, etc), only then can you read the resulting AFR that is best at that point. That is the best AFR, and can now be used as a target to maintain. Same goes for ignition timing, which is the critical other half of the recipe, and enables the engine to extract the maximum energy from the fuel.

I hope that helps your journey, and if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. :cool: Keep the updates coming!
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Good to hear you are making positive incremental progress! Like climbing out of a hole, the more progress you make, the quicker it is.😅 If I had only one suggestion to help new tuners get good results (besides studying basic engine theory), would be to emphasize my last post on tuning for efficiency and performance.

This relates to "forum" tuning, in that a lot of the help you get is directed, meaning some will say to use a certain AFR, or that you're too lean or rich. Please don't let the blind lead the blind. Without data from logs and other references (spark plug reading, MAP response, timing tests, etc), or knowing your specific fuel and how your engine uses it, there is no way a reader can suggest valid info.

Yes, you can use generalized AFRs to get it running well enough to begin tuning, as mentioned earlier, but that's about it. Some forum help is good, but we never tune to AFRs. We tune to peak efficiency and best performance, regardless of AFR readings. Weird, eh?

Peak efficiency translates to best torque, or horsepower, or economy, or however we are using that efficiency. Efficiency is determined by engine's response to values, as detailed in the data. "It runs good" is useless, as until you find peak efficiency, you can't know how good that is.;)

Once you find the peak efficiency in a certain mode (load, rpm, temperatures, acceleration, MPG, etc), only then can you read the resulting AFR that is best at that point. That is the best AFR, and can now be used as a target to maintain. Same goes for ignition timing, which is the critical other half of the recipe, and enables the engine to extract the maximum energy from the fuel.

I hope that helps your journey, and if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. :cool: Keep the updates coming!
Well, I'm working on it! I haven't had a lot of time to read as much as I should on real tuning. I'm more or less (more) just winging it, knowing its going to be pretty hard to fatally wound the stock engine. I tend to learn the hard way.

One thing I'm struggling with is load vs. efficiency. Cruise on the highway is ~60-70 kPa. That's ~22% TPS. That's translating to about 8mpg. Of course I'm also commanding 13.8 and 28*, I haven't started playing with that yet.

I'm trying to whittle that down a bit. I'm starting to think I actually have some mechanical issues I need to address.. Well, I have to find them first. the truck gets driven so infrequently, I forget what "normal" was, so when I do drive it, there is a lot of "...is that normal, or did all my bearings turn to gravel?"

I need to do a compression test and get my fuel pressure sensor installed and functioning. If the short block is fine I'm planning on buying Mad Porter's budget ported heads and a cam package this summer.
 

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One thing I'm struggling with is load vs. efficiency. Cruise on the highway is ~60-70 kPa. That's ~22% TPS. That's translating to about 8mpg. Of course I'm also commanding 13.8 and 28*, I haven't started playing with that yet.
OK, so I'll get a bit deeper with this, as it can also provide other perspectives and insights to tuning. Economy is a specific application of efficiency, and approached differently than brute power efficiency, emissions efficiency, etc. Enabling economy is accomplished by reducing pumping losses. First a basic and critical point for all modes of operation, is that the engine and a specific fuel will create peak efficiency by timing the peak cylinder pressure (PCP) at a specific crank angle. This angle is after top center, is a matter of engine geometry, and places the piston, rod and crank at the "sweet spot" to best use the burning fuel's cylinder pressure to create mechanical power through the stroke. That's the goal.

In order for the PCP to placed perfectly at that crank angle, we have to light the mixture earlier for the pressure to build and peak at that desired crank angle. We can't see where that angle is, but we can see in the data when it's there or not. Every factor imaginable affects the burn rate and when the spark should happen to get the PCP angle.

Ignition timing is just as important as fueling, as both need to work together to efficiently pull the most energy from the fuel. Any time fuel, air or spark changes, the others change if they are optimal. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. If you reduce throttle and airflow reduces, the mix becomes less dense, and burns slower. As fuel changes away from peak torque, the burn rate slows, and so on.

So when you lean the mix the PCP shifts later where it happens and we need to advance the timing so it hits the PCP angle properly, else it is effectively retarded. Retarded means lower efficiency, less power, less economy, more heat, which moves toward detonation … anyway, overall not good. So, we adjust timing to reacquire peak efficiency for the conditions. That's ignition tuning. Using data to "see" that happening is diagnostic tuning.

I'm taking a rare opportunity to be a little snotty right now. Some say the AFR is not important, as in a general range makes similar power. This is true, but only if the ignition timing is not also adjusted to the optimal point for maximum torque production. Likewise, some say the same about timing, as not so important. Oh, like hell it's not. It seems that many say these things because they are either "that's good enough" tuners, or they don't actually know how to do it except perhaps at idle and WOT, and deflect by saying it's not important. You can often identify them by asking a question, such as "How do you know you have found best timing at cruise?", and they don't have much of an answer.

OK, so off the soap box and on to how we can do that. We have a killer advantage with EFI, which is data and easy adjustments. Rather than trying this jet or that timing, we can look at the data to see what it tells us and click the mouse for an adjustment to confirm it. Very cool. While some carburetor users have found they can greatly improve their adjustments and accel shots by using a wide-band O2 to "see" what's really happening; imagine if we had that, plus dozens of other data streams to work with, all stored in a log we can review at our leisure. That's custom EFI. No, it's not a traditional dyno, and so we have to read the data differently to diagnose it. Diagnostic tuning.

I'm saying all of this as I feel it is a very important basis for anyone tuning, and especially EFI. It sets the mode and attitudes. While all of the fundamentals of tuning a carb'ed or EFI engine are the same, how you go about it is different for the reasons I just stated, and more that I haven't. So it's important to remind yourself that we are not on a random "let's try this" mission, but a comparative methodical diagnostic mission to see what the engine likes, using lots of data. It is science over art, anyone can do it that is willing to learn, and where skill and experience only help to speed the process — not depend on them. Not to short-change good carb tuners, as they use different methods for gathering data, which are very effective skills and we use some of them in EFI.

Putting this into practice, we improve economy by reducing throttle to our selected cruise speed to tune (duh) , leaning fuel to just before the burn is unstable where you feel surging or hunting and see it in the data (yes, very lean), but then reacquiring efficiency by adjusting timing to that invisible PCP point. We see all that happen first as a reduction of power from leaning, which reduces speed and requires more throttle (%TPS) to maintain speed. Then we watch data such as MAP, and when we add timing the MAP goes lower (efficiency indicator), indicating the PCP angle is improving towards best crank angle for that specific part-throttle lean condition. Too much timing and it will begin to increase MAP again as the PCP overshoots best crank angle and begins to fight the process.

That's one way to do it, but to be able to use more data, we need to have a better understanding of what's happening here. Well, it takes a certain amount of energy to get from point A to point B. There is no avoiding that. To get there using less fuel means to make it more efficient in converting that fuel. When we lean we just use more throttle to get the speed back. Hmm. No big gains there, and it is inefficient because the timing is now effectively retarded by slower burn. Hmm. But when we adjust the timing to regain efficiency, we have a new player that is improved. Your new friend is reduced pumping losses.

So now we are going down the road using more throttle to make the same power to maintain our cruise speed. A V8 engine is an air pump, and it takes a lot of power to rotate those engine guts when it's acting like a vacuum pump. By tuning to open the throttle more without losing basic efficiency, it breathes easier and consumes less power and fuel to spin that vacuum pump. The pumping losses have been reduced, adding fuel conversion efficiency. An additional benefit is the increased effective compression with more air in the cylinders from higher volumetric efficiency. Bingo, better fuel economy. Keep on tuning! :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Keep on tuning! :cool:
I appreciate the tips. Using this info, I had the wife drive me on a little trip.. A couple hours on the road.

I was able to get my MPG up considerably.. Although the lack of being able to screw it up concerns me.

I had it tuned, in my opinion, REALLY lean for a lot of. 15.3+, but it just kept taking it and giving better feedback. At one point I had it at almost 16:1, with 38*, which gave me the best feedback I had yet, 70mph at about 48 kPa.. according to the computer that was translating to 13ish MPG.

I never got any misfiring, and I never got any negative feedback while driving. Hell, I took a LOT of fuel out of the entire map (under 75kPa) and it really didn't seem to make any difference to how it drove. However I was finally able to get more than 100 miles to a tank of gas.. In fact I'm at 100 miles and have more than a half a tank left, for the first time in a while. My little cruise island on the VE table is coming together pretty nice, from what I can tell. I'm just getting scared for my exhaust valves at this point, lol.
 

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Although the lack of being able to screw it up concerns me. … I had it tuned, in my opinion, REALLY lean for a lot of. 15.3+, but it just kept taking it and giving better feedback. … I never got any misfiring, and I never got any negative feedback while driving
Cool!:cool: Keep going. To find the best performance (power, economy, whatever), means quickly finding the limits that will bracket your best results. Initially, this can be in larger chunks of fuel and timing change, to quickly find the fuzzy limits, e.g., under specific conditions**, smooth burn begins to break-up at maybe 10.2 on the fat end and 16.7 on the lean end. With that operational (or effective) range established, you can focus finer increments to further narrow the performance range you're after, and you are eventually down to "tweaking" at that peak performance point.

Think of it like your lawn mower. It begins quick and easy for obvious results, like turning the screw on your lawn mower carb. Twist this way until it complains, then the other way until it complains. That is your operational range. Smaller turns in the right area of that range for specific performance.

Don't worry about the AFR reading. This is one of the most common misconceptions in tuning, that we tune to AFRs. We DO NOT. We tune to performance, only. AFRs are only used in a relative sense. Once we have found performance (supported by data), we then note the resulting AFR. This AFR result is now our target for the ECM's automatic corrections, to maintain that best AFR we found, and therefore the performance we need.

A related big point is that AFRs can read quite different from one WBO2 setup to the next, and that's OK, because we are not looking for someone else's numbers, but the numbers you found by your diagnostic tuning. It can read 18:1 or 14:1 or in Greek letters for how we use it, as whatever it reads-out, that is relative as the proven resulting target for best performance in this engine. Likewise, being 'rich' or 'lean' is relative from that best performance AFR, not some abstract or skewed value like stoich or 14.7:1.

Combustion heat is not a concern while the valves are on the seats. Heat transfers from the valve to the head and they are protected. Your exhaust valves overheat when the burning charge is late, and still high-temp as it flows around the unseated valve on exit. If your ignition timing is optimum for the fueling, the combustion will end and expanding gasses will reduce pressure and rapidly cool before the valve opens, and so the valves will run cooler. This is another example why fuel and ignition timing are equally important partners in obtaining best performance, safety and reliability.

Go find your limits!

**Everything is always "depending-on conditions". Everything is a constantly changing condition, from intake air temp over hot pavement in traffic, to the slight hill you're on, to the blend of stuff they called "gasoline" at the corner station this morning. In-short, every tuning and operating action is based upon a very specific set of conditions and the tuning goals for that condition.
 

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Thats not how it works, lean is fine but too lean can get real bad real quick 😉
That is true, and cause for the effort to explain how and why lean-burn (or rich-burn for that matter) can be dangerous if done poorly. Please help us to explain so users are not just living in fear. Explain your statement and remove the mystery.

There is good reason for the common warnings we all see of lean = bad. For most users, just leaning the jets in the carb is easy but potentially dangerous, as the lean condition must be accompanied by changes in ignition timing to control the heat generated and where in the cycle it happens. As most users are not familiar with why and how to do this and it's an involved job with mechanical distributors, they probably won't, and damage is a real possibility. Result: A flat statement of "Don't do it."

With programmable electronic timing control it is relatively easy, and what we are working with here. Over the years, the legend has stuck and become a form of "rule", while many do not understand the basis of the warning and how or why it could be either safe or dangerous. That is the goal here, and how the danger could be avoided with a bit of science and understanding. Your help is appreciated!
 
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