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88 bronco, 460, tons
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Why ATF/kerosene? Just curious, seems like an odd combo. I get the the kerosene, is the atf just being used as a lubricant at that point?

After i cleaned the bores i noticed them flash-rust which is when i grabbed some 30w and wiped em down. The rings i installed dry but i oiled the piston/rings right before slipping them down into the bores. Its not like i dunked them in oil, but i did coat them in it, as opposed to coating the ring compressor. Its definitely possible i used too much as i had no idea how much to use. I know i didnt run it long, but didnt see any smoke or oil consumption so i figured i did it right. I followed the chart that came with the rings, with respect on which way to clock each one for the initial fire.
 

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ATF is a very good detergent and cleaner, it will pick up dirt particles that other products leave behind. I’ve never heard the mix with kerosene trick, JimL will have to explain that part.

I remember hearing and reading about old school guys using ATF to break up carbon deposits on valves by sucking it in through the below throttle blade vacuum port I believe.
 

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1990 Ford Mustang LX 351M powered!! Project Cherry Bomb!!
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I second the use of paper towels or shop type paper towels instead of any cloth rags or microfiber towels.. the fibers in cloth based products don't break down like the ones in paper towels do and can gum up lifters, oil pump valves, bearings,anywhere there are tight tolerances in the engine...
 

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I probably don't do it like the pros but i clean them in several steps, with mineral spirits,ATF,and brake clean on a rag. Repeat till no more gray stuff shows up on the rags/towel.

I start with the blue paper towels till i see no more on them and then go to a white lint free cloth towel until nothing shows on that.

Don't spray brake clean directly on the bores. It sprays out cold and can make the cast flash rust. I spray it on a rag then wipe walls.

For install i wipe some oil on cylinders and put a few drops on the rings and skirts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Ok that explains the flash-rust, because i definitely sprayed the non-chlorinated brakleen directly on the bores, then used the blue lint-free shop towels to clean it. So odds are i didnt clean it well enough.
 

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As Wickettoby1 said, ATF has the detergents and chemical cleaning agents ...but is a little on the thick side for practical cleaning.
Kerosene is a good (not great, like Kroil) penetrating oil to help lift and clean. It thins the ATF but won't quickly disappear like brake clean.

75% ATF to 25% kerosene seems to work well for new machine shop grit. 50/50 for older parts with carbon build up ...or gun powder residue.

Very flammable! Treat it like gasoline. And let those paper towels air dry then place in outdoor garbage can ...if you cannot burn them.
 

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I use the round coffee filters when wiping the cylinders. They are tougher than paper towels and provide a bit more scrubbing action.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Very interesting, ill have to keep both of those in mind.

So wednesday i got the 466 back out:
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Slinging this thing by myself, without removing the hood, wasnt easy.
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So here we are again, back on the stand. Now to see what went wrong.
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
So the engine came out and went back onto the stand wednesday. Spent yesterday & today disassembling it to see just what went wrong. Heres what i found.

I had pulled the oil drain plug the night before, so when i got home from work i could immediately drop the pan. This is what i found:
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So we're not off to a good start. So i moved to the top end to remove the heads. I bought a cheap ($10) parts organizer from Harbor Freight and used it to organize the rockers + hardware, lifters and pushrods so i could keep track of where they came from
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I found 3 pushrods with chips in the top. Coincidentally all exhaust valves
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Heads off:
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I can see slight scoring in the bores:
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Rolled over, lets inspect the bottom end:
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If its not clear in the pic, the oil pickup is absolutely covered in metal, to the point of it seeming like it was dipped in nevr-seize
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Pulled the #2 crank bearing cap, and well....
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Scored to all hell, including the crank journal.
Pulled a rod bearing, and same thing:
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This is typical of all rod bearings:
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Crank is out. All bearings wiped, all journals scored. I hope i can salvage the crank.
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Starting pulling lifters. #5 intake lifter is wrecked:






#7 intake lifter also damaged, altho not nearly as bad:
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Cam lobe wiped out:
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All piston skirts showing wear:
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All cylinder bores scored:
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And the bare block, waiting for its return trip to the machine shop next week:
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So i guess its true what they say....any job worth doing, is worth doing twice.
 

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From what you've said it sounds like you took good care being clean when you put it together, unless you tossed a handful of dirt in it before you cranked it up I think there's something else going on here... Stupid question.. but you did have the correct size bearings right? I'd take the oil pump apart as well and inspect/clean it out if it can be saved as well... Oh afterthought.. but I always prime my oil pumps... Your damage wasn't caused by a bad oil pump but a loooota metal flying thru it.. question is.. Where did it come from? There was a first source of part failure that caused the cascade they you have here.. Keep us up to date! Everyone can learn something!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I removed and inspected all bearings, and they were in fact the correct bearings.
I cut open the final oil filter this morning, as as youd suspect it was full of metal.
The #5 lifter/cam lobe is really bad; far worse than the others. So perhaps this is the original failure point?


The crank has heavy scoring, its going to need atleast another .010, but probably .020 to really clean up.



How far can i safely go? The crank is currently -.010 on the mains and -.020 on the rods. I do have another shortblock in the garage (that also needs rebuilt) but i could always use that crank if this one is too far gone.

I havent disassembled the pump yet, i was going to call Kaase on Monday before i took it apart.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
So I dropped the motor back off at the machine shop Friday morning. He's in agreement with me that the cam is the root cause of the failure.
He's going to order a new cam and lifters, and new pushrods. Heads are ok so I'm just going to clean them real good. Block he thinks will clean up with a hone. I have another crank from a '95 so we're going with that one since he thinks it will clean up with just a polish so we can stay with standard bearings.

I don't know what to do about the oil cooler. It is no doubt full of metal from the bearings, and I'm not sure how to flush it out. There is a transmission shop down the road from me so I'm probably going to stop there Monday and see if they can do it, otherwise I guess I'm going to have to replace it just to be safe.

I have a question about headers. The set I have are pretty old, and while they fit the bronco amazingly well the passenger header leaks at the collector and the manifold. Truthfully, they're due for replacement. There is a million options out there; Hedman has I think 9, Banks has 2 or 3, Doug Thorley has 2 or 3, then there's Stan's, L&L....the list goes on.
I'd prefer something coated but I don't think you can break in an engine with coated headers correct? So I should probably seal mine up best I can and then wait until after engine break-in to swap them out, correct? Im not even sure which set I want yet, still researching. Coil-sprung D60 front axle so they've got to clear the front driveshaft and radius arms, and Id prefer a set that doesn't have the emissions ports on them since they won't be hooked up anyway.
 

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Dunno about the headers, but Uncle Tony has a new video on YouTube about the whole cam break-in thing that might be good to watch!! He had a lotta good info and good things to check before putting the cam and lifters in to help keep that issue from happening!! Also check out how they broke in the cam on the fresh Hemi they rebuilt, might help out as well!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Not familiar with that channel, but I found that video and saved it (y) I'm gonna check it out later today or tomorrow.
 

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While the situation sucks (i've done the EXACT same thing so I know how you feel) The silver lining to this is now the ignition / efi system should be MUCH closer to correct which will help eliminate the excessive cranking before it actually runs and can break the cam in properly. That was the same exact issue I had that wiped the cam in mine. I got a carb that I KNEW was good and it was a much better process the next go around.

Have you thought about going to a roller cam? Doesnt require the same types of break in and overall generally easier to use...
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Yeah that was my thinking as well. I know exactly where the distributor was, so i can drop the motor in and have it 99.9% ready to go. Run the oil pump with the drill, stab the distributor, immediately fire it up, and this time i know itll run good enough to break it in.

I only started researching the conversion to roller lifter on here yesterday, so not really sure what all is involved. Ive only ever installed one cam before (guess which one!) so im not real good at reading a cam's spec page.
I did see this cam:
but im not sure if thats a good option or not, as opposed to what was using before(link) Its an offroad toy thats gonna live its life below 5k rpm so i think either is ok, but it looks to me the original cam would make more power lower. Or maybe the roller would just make more power overall? Im not sure.
 

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On the roller cams, you can use a roller cam, but there are some caveats.. Someone who's got more info or can explain it better than me can jump in here, it's got something to do with the geometry on the how it works on a big block Ford. It really works better off if you wanna go that route to use a hydraulic roller cam and sold roller lifters and tight lash the rockers. If you try to use hydraulic roller lifter they are too long, that makes the pushrods too short and you lose any benefit of the roller cam, aside from the break-in issues. Scotty J can attest to this, I think he's been doing it for quite some time. I really don't think there's any issues with longevity using solid rollers on the street doing it this way since you don't have to run really high spring pressures like you normally would with a solid roller cam. I'm still researching this myself, and I hope someone else will chime in on the subject, as it's really relevant here...

Edit .... You can get better power across the board w a roller, and not have to worry about the break-in, it's just a matter of co$t.. And check out more of Uncle Tony!! That old fart has a lotta good stuff in his channel!!
Cheers!!
 

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i think that you didnt install the oil pump gasket. it goes between the oil pump and the engine block. or maybe it is the wrong gasket and the hole isnt lining up with the hole in the engine block and oil pump. from what you said though, i do believe that you should check the rod and main clearances because i believe that you did damage to them. use a plastigauge to check them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I thought so too but when I pulled the oil pump out it was there. It was the gasket that came with the pump from Kaase.

Everything is at the machine shop now. The crank was going to need .030 under on bearings so I'm using another one that only needed a polish for stock bearings. New bearings, cam, lifters, pushrods, oil pump, etc. Machine shop honed the block again and got another set of rings for me as well. I cant get the oil cooler apart to properly clean it so I'm most likely going to discard it, buy an oil filter adapter and run that instead. Hoping to have it running by Christmas, but it depends on when all the parts come in.
 

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Ooohhh! I know the machine shop is gnna "clean" the block while they have it, but it wouldn't hurt to get a engine brush kit from HF or elsewhere and clean out all the oil galleries for yourself using whatever cleaner you choose.. And don't forget to clean out all the pushrods with cleaner and blow them out w compressed air! I've seen some on here use rubbing alcohol, WD-40, mineral spirits.. I'd say just use whatever makes good sense to you to make sure you get all traces of debris out of it.. (I use mineral spirits and a good spray bottle along w compressed air instead of brake cleaner... a lot cheaper than all those spray cans!!) Did anyone ever get into the subject of assembly lube??? I've used permatex ultra slick and had really good results with it.. I like the way it really clings to bearing surfaces and dosent run off till crankup time. Also, don't forget to lube up everything on the valvetrain! Rockers, valve tips, pushrods on both ends, distributor gear, timing chain, anywhere there's something that runs against something else except for the rings I usually use just a lil bit of engine oil on the rings And of course whatever comes with the cam and lifters is the recommended for the break-in there.. Oooohh! And since you already laid out the change for the Kaase oil pump I know you're gonna check it or have the machine shop do that.. it may have some "stuff" hiding in the bypass valve.. Oh and on the subject of the oil pump, when you go back together with it, take the cover off it, squirt some assembly lube in it and give it a lil spin before you put it on. That'll make sure it picks oil up right off the first turn. Also check the oil pickup? Make sure there's no way it can be sucking air from there? Use just a dab of liquid Teflon on the threads where the pick-up screws in the pump. I'm just tossing out everything I can think of to try to help out. I know you've already done some of this stuff and it may have already been discussed, but like I said just spitballing here to try and help..
 
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