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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,
I have been waiting since April 3rd for a set of splayed, center three, caps to fit a factory Ford SCJ block with the dowel pin locators. I'm not here to slam anybody so the name of the supplier doesn't matter at this time but if anyone has any ideas or better yet caps I sure would be interested. Thanks in advance.
Jay
 

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are you converting a 2bolt block to 4 bolt? if it is a factory 4 bolt block I don't think you can put splayed main caps on it.

wayne
 

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Hi all,
I have been waiting since April 3rd for a set of splayed, center three, caps to fit a factory Ford SCJ block with the dowel pin locators. I'm not here to slam anybody so the name of the supplier doesn't matter at this time but if anyone has any ideas or better yet caps I sure would be interested. Thanks in advance.
Jay
If you have a factory 4-bolt block which already has parallel outer bolts, then I would stick with that and not drill a second aet of outer (splayed ) bolts holes into that block.

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes it is a 4 bolt block already. I have plugged the existing outer holes and don't really see a problem with installing the new splayed outer holes. The new holes are (obviously) angled outward and they don't intersect the old holes. Not sure how or why this would cause a problem but I was wrong once before. :) Anyway, it's the block my customer has to work with and the stock caps are not staying in place so..... until the A460 is in the budget for next year this will have to do. Just need some caps REAL soon or we wont have to worry about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
if the caps arent staying in place with 2 bolts, theres probably something wrong with the tune... or youre trying to put out over about 700hp
Yes, it was making well over 700 hp. Nothing apparently wrong with the tune, ran pretty well. Never hurt the bearings.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Were you using the stock 4 bolt caps?
Yes. And a main girdle. Don't get me wrong, it's not like the caps were trying to change their order. But, they definitely have been moving and we are making some changes to the combo to make more HP so I would feel better about it with splayed caps. I have installed splayed caps on other 460 blocks (2 bolt) and it makes a big difference. Especially on truck pull stuff with extended high rpm. Anyway, I have had caps ordered since April 3rd from what used to be a good, reliable supplier. Apparently things have changed. Just thought maybe someone might have some. Thanks.
 

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i've seen those 4-bolt blocks handle a lot more than 700 hp with no cap walk or maybe micro cap walk, if your have that big of a deal with 700hp i would look elswhere for harmonics. those caps should have an interferance fit when installed, if they are loose when installed you may have a problem. even with the pin they could be worn and loose.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
i've seen those 4-bolt blocks handle a lot more than 700 hp with no cap walk or maybe micro cap walk, if your have that big of a deal with 700hp i would look elswhere for harmonics. those caps should have an interferance fit when installed, if they are loose when installed you may have a problem. even with the pin they could be worn and loose.
I don't know why it has been assumed it makes 700 hp? It was making closer to 850hp and as I said before it shows signs of cap walk. Not a "golf ball dimple" pattern yet. They fit snug on the dowels. Runs on Methonol with a mild tune as far as ignition timing goes.I am just trying to get ahead of the game in anticipation of making more hp with the new combo. Was just looking for some caps.
 

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I would think if money was an issue you could probably sell that block for decent money? start over with a 2 bolt block rather than mess up a good 4 bolt block. Are using ARP studs on the bottom end which might help if your not.but it doesnt sound like your problem is real severe
 

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Yes it is a 4 bolt block already. I have plugged the existing outer holes and don't really see a problem with installing the new splayed outer holes. The new holes are (obviously) angled outward and they don't intersect the old holes. Not sure how or why this would cause a problem but I was wrong once before. :) Anyway, it's the block my customer has to work with and the stock caps are not staying in place so..... until the A460 is in the budget for next year this will have to do. Just need some caps REAL soon or we wont have to worry about it.


dont do this, find a 2 bolt block, or run it as a 4 bolt as it is
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I would think if money was an issue you could probably sell that block for decent money? start over with a 2 bolt block rather than mess up a good 4 bolt block. Are using ARP studs on the bottom end which might help if your not.but it doesnt sound like your problem is real severe
The block is filled, .080" over, o-ringed, and wouldn't be usable for anything other than racing. It does have studs.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
dont do this, find a 2 bolt block, or run it as a 4 bolt as it is
Why? Seriously. I cant believe the grief I'm getting over doing this. If someone has a real world experience demonstrating why I should not do this I truly am open to suggestions. So far I haven't seen any reason not to. The factory outer holes are plugged so how is that much different than using a 2 bolt? The new outer holes will not intersect the old outer holes so why would it be a problem? The new splayed bolts will be pulling in from the meat of the block just as they do on a 2 bolt. I realize this is a rather rare block but it's fate as being used a race engine was sealed a long time ago.
 

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... I have had caps ordered since April 3rd from what used to be a good, reliable supplier. Apparently things have changed. Just thought maybe someone might have some. Thanks.
Yes, things have changed. The economy has put the majority of suppliers into a JIT ("just in time") mode. This means that very little inventory is kept on the shelf and parts are fabricated on an as-needed basis. In the case of main caps, the manufacturer may wait until a reasonable quantity justifies the expense of the production run. It's just the reality of the current economical situation and what business must do to maintain liquidity and survive.

I don't need to know from whom you are attempting to get D0VE-A style splayed caps, but there are plenty available if you don't mind using 1025 carbon steel CAT caps. The CAT caps are certainly stronger than any D0VE-A block's cast 4-bolt parallel caps; they will be the strongest part of a production D0VE-A block; they are inexpensive (less than $100), and they are a single piece of billet steel which you will fully machine for the application anyway. We have used them on about 8-9 engines ranging from a 700+ hp naturally aspirated marine engine to a blown 521 monster truck engine. Zero problems.

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes, things have changed. The economy has put the majority of suppliers into a JIT ("just in time") mode. This means that very little inventory is kept on the shelf and parts are fabricated on an as-needed basis. In the case of main caps, the manufacturer may wait until a reasonable quantity justifies the expense of the production run. It's just the reality of the current economical situation and what business must do to maintain liquidity and survive.

I don't need to know from whom you are attempting to get D0VE-A style splayed caps, but there are plenty available if you don't mind using 1025 carbon steel CAT caps. The CAT caps are certainly stronger than any D0VE-A block's cast 4-bolt parallel caps; they will be the strongest part of a production D0VE-A block; they are inexpensive (less than $100), and they are a single piece of billet steel which you will fully machine for the application anyway. We have used them on about 8-9 engines ranging from a 700+ hp naturally aspirated marine engine to a blown 521 monster truck engine. Zero problems.

Paul
Paul, thank you! The place I ordered them from said they would make them so I took them at there word. They need to get the "program" together and quit making empty promises. I have had some bad experiences with a few CAT products that customers supplied, mostly main cap girdles but have never seen the caps. At this point I wouldn't care about them being 1025 steel, as you said. What do you mean by "you will fully machine for the application"? Do they come with a flat bottom or do they have the step machined in for a 2 bolt block? I can machine the dowel holes and machine them flat if needed. Does the thrust bearing register need to be machined? The price is definitely cheap enough as long as they aren't junk. Do you know what angle the splayed holes are at? Thanks again.
 

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Paul, thank you! I have had some bad experiences with a few CAT products that customers supplied, mostly main cap girdles but have never seen the caps. At this point I wouldn't care about them being 1025 steel, as you said. What do you mean by "you will fully machine for the application"? Do they come with a flat bottom or do they have the step machined in for a 2 bolt block? I can machine the dowel holes and machine them flat if needed. Does the thrust bearing register need to be machined? The price is definitely cheap enough as long as they aren't junk. Do you know what angle the splayed holes are at? Thanks again.
Generally, they are identical in appearance (<---shape) to the Milodon ductile iron caps except that the CATs are made of steel and are black-oxided instead of gold iridited.

They are advertised as a 17-degree spayed cap. They are a single-register main cap made to be fitted to the D0VE-A blocks specifically, not a double-register cap (a la Blue Thunder) which is meant to have the standard-webbed (non-D0VE) blocks machined to accept the BT cap's outer registers. The thrust bearing register does not need to be machined because the overall thickess of all 3 CAT caps is equal to the OEM SCJ center cap's thrust register thickness (this main cap width is adequate to accommodate all main bearings without any "overhang").

By "fullly machine," I mean that you will need to carefully prepare them as you would any other aftermarket main cap conversion, regardless of manufacturer: qualify the registers, measure and set the outter register cap-to-web gap, align bore, align hone, etc. My only recommendation specific to machining the CAT caps is to take slow, light cuts when align boring; don't just plow through with big rough cuts to get to the final cut/hone (be sure to express this to the shop that does the align bore and align hone).

They come with new outer bolts (you are expected to re-used the OEM main bolts) and even a pilot for drilling the outer bolts (the pilot may not last for all 6 outer bolts, so think about getting extras from an engine tooling supply house). I see no reason why you couldn't drill the caps to accommodate the OEM block's dowel pins. If you want to replace the offshore bolts with ARP or something like that, that's up to you.

I understand your weariness about CAT products and won't dispute your general concern. Currently, my opinion on CAT is to watch out for those components that are made up of moving parts (rocker arms, waterpumps, harmonic balancers, etc), but not necessarily a single hunk of steel such as a main cap. :) Remember that there once was also a time when most everyone bashed new-comers Eagle and SCAT because their parts were failing, but today they have their act together. I think that CAT is slowly working their way up the ladder, but personally I will use only their solid parts such as connecting rods and main caps and I will make sure they get a thorough dimensional inspection...but shouldn't all parts get such an inspection in a high hp build? By the way, this is what I was originally alluding to when I said, "they are a single piece of billet steel which you will fully machine for the application anyway." Just be sure to check everything out.

Right now on Ebay, when I type "460 main caps" into the search engine, I find 4-bolt main cap conversions by Programm (<---U.S. made of 1045 steel), CAT, and ProComp. I prefer the CAT caps over the ProComp caps (the ProComp caps don't include the outer bolts nor do they include a drill pilot....and frankly I just don't care for ProComp parts....). Of the three brands noted above, the Programms are U.S. made, are made of the best material, and are the strongest parts.....but the CAT's are easily the strongest part of the cast iron block once they are installed (ie something else about the block will fail from execessive power before the steel main caps will).

Paul
 

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Why? Seriously. I cant believe the grief I'm getting over doing this. If someone has a real world experience demonstrating why I should not do this I truly am open to suggestions. So far I haven't seen any reason not to. The factory outer holes are plugged so how is that much different than using a 2 bolt? The new outer holes will not intersect the old outer holes so why would it be a problem? The new splayed bolts will be pulling in from the meat of the block just as they do on a 2 bolt. I realize this is a rather rare block but it's fate as being used a race engine was sealed a long time ago.
REAL WORLD, YA YOU COULD SAY I HAVE, first the 2 bolt with splayed caps is stronger then what you want to do, 2nd it shouldnt of had cap walk at 850hp, tune up off?

real world< you come here asking for info, and you say something like that?


good luck



-rich
 

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Discussion Starter #20
REAL WORLD, YA YOU COULD SAY I HAVE, first the 2 bolt with splayed caps is stronger then what you want to do, 2nd it shouldnt of had cap walk at 850hp, tune up off?

real world< you come here asking for info, and you say something like that?


good luck



-rich
Hey Rich, don't get your panties in a bunch. First, IF you read my original post, I WAS NOT looking for advice. I was looking for main caps. I knew when I posted that someone would go off like you did but it's all part of being an internet engine builder hero like you I guess. Anyway, thanks to the few that have actually helped and emailed. I have a good option now. Good luck to you also Rich. It's been swell.
 
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