460 Ford Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i have been fighting problems with my 524 w/ a broken key @ crank gear, after fixing problem i went to the track and had major timming issues shooting fire thru exhuast and carb. First, i thought i had broken another key, but after teardown revealed the timing chain and key were intact. Assuming i had probley bent some valves when the key had originally broke i began a second teardown, removing the pass side head showed no bent valves no contact of any kind. At this point i'm baffled.... Since i put a Summit Billet Roller chain in when i had fixed the broken key i called summit to inquire what could be the problem with the timing. The tech person advised me that i had installed the Dizzy wrong???????..i had installed the Dizzy the same way i had always instsalled it with No. 1 [email protected] stroke rotor facing 1 on the cap. when i had re-installed the cam after the first tear down i lined up the 0 mark on the crank gear @ 12:00 and the dot on the cam gear @ 6:00, installing the cam "straight up" at this point No. 1 cylinder was @ TDC on compression stroke and i dropped in the dizzy. According to the tech person i was 180 off. he then advised me to turn the motor over (while i had the head off, watching the lifter movement) until i saw the intake lifter moving up and then all the way down which brought the No. 1 up to TDC again. At this point the piston is @TDC and the intake valve has just closed (not quite on the full base circle of the cam) and here is where he said to install the dizzy. i re-installed the dizzy and when i get the new head gasket tuesday i will see if the motor runs properly. At this point i really have no explination of why the cars timming is being such a problem and am willing to try it this way. the tech guy said that the timing mark on the cam gear should be at 12:00 and the timing mark on the crank gear should also be at 12:00 when the dist is installed. My question--- is this all in the timing chain assy i got from summit. the timing chain i had in there before was not set up like this and i wonder if the summit billit chain is different from all the other chains out there? has anybody else run into this before?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
forget about the summit guy...... sounds like you had it right the way you had it set up the first time. with that said, while you still have the heads off stand the heads on the intake face( where the intake bolts to ) with the exhaust port facing up and fill the exhaust ports with alcohol to above the valve levels. look at the chambers and see if it leaks into the chambers. I would just about bet there is at least 1 bent exhaust valves.

wayne
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i put the heads on the head stand with the chambers facing up and filled the chambers with acetone---NO LEAKS. i will try it your way tomorrow and see if that makes a differance. i don't see any valve off the seat --at all. i'll fill the exhuast ports up with gas and the intake ports also just to be sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
i have been fighting problems with my 524 w/ a broken key @ crank gear, after fixing problem i went to the track and had major timming issues shooting fire thru exhuast and carb. First, i thought i had broken another key, but after teardown revealed the timing chain and key were intact. Assuming i had probley bent some valves when the key had originally broke i began a second teardown, removing the pass side head showed no bent valves no contact of any kind. At this point i'm baffled.... Since i put a Summit Billet Roller chain in when i had fixed the broken key i called summit to inquire what could be the problem with the timing. The tech person advised me that i had installed the Dizzy wrong???????..i had installed the Dizzy the same way i had always instsalled it with No. 1 [email protected] stroke rotor facing 1 on the cap. when i had re-installed the cam after the first tear down i lined up the 0 mark on the crank gear @ 12:00 and the dot on the cam gear @ 6:00, installing the cam "straight up" at this point No. 1 cylinder was @ TDC on compression stroke and i dropped in the dizzy. According to the tech person i was 180 off. he then advised me to turn the motor over (while i had the head off, watching the lifter movement) until i saw the intake lifter moving up and then all the way down which brought the No. 1 up to TDC again. At this point the piston is @TDC and the intake valve has just closed (not quite on the full base circle of the cam) and here is where he said to install the dizzy. i re-installed the dizzy and when i get the new head gasket tuesday i will see if the motor runs properly. At this point i really have no explination of why the cars timming is being such a problem and am willing to try it this way. the tech guy said that the timing mark on the cam gear should be at 12:00 and the timing mark on the crank gear should also be at 12:00 when the dist is installed. My question--- is this all in the timing chain assy i got from summit. the timing chain i had in there before was not set up like this and i wonder if the summit billit chain is different from all the other chains out there? has anybody else run into this before?
the intake valves Dont close at or near TDC , if it does --180* off
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
The summit guy is a Chevy guy, that's how it works on a small block chevy. You need to stay away from all those tech. guys , there Chevy guys. This forum is the best source for big block Fords. That being said you still haven't found the problem. You probably should run compression ck. on the side you didn't pull, also is your firing order correct? Randy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
2slow,
are you saying the cam is installed wrong???? because just as the intake is closed the no.1 is @TDC not on the compression stroke, but it is @ TDC at that point. if so then there is something wrong with this chain and gear.

also my son was watching the car leave from the pass side and said that 2 feet of flames were shooting out of that side for sure, thats why i pulled that side first, if there is no bent valves on that side then there is probley nothing wrong with the other side.

guys i was just thinking, what if i had sheared the cam pin? if what 2slow is saying is true then the cam gear must be off? i looked at the cam gear and the pin is in there but if it sheared you really can't tell unless you take the gear off. then again, when the timing marks are lined up right the cam is on the base circle of no. 1 which doesn't makes sense if the cam gear is off? i have done a compression test and they all hit 180, i don't know i'm relly pulling my hair out on this one.

thanks for the input guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,676 Posts
the intake valves Don't close at or near TDC , if it does --180* off
:eek: Exactly!!! Intakes CLOSE when the piston is done making it's DOWNWARD travel! The cam is 180* out. The exaust should be closing at TDC. I've never heard of timing the cam gear at 12 oclock, the dots always were next to each other.......I could be all wrong here but all the BBF's that I've done, if memory servs, were next to each other......And be sure you gas check the other head too.
Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
make sure your on the right lifter .. correct one is right side(pass) first one .. on FM , one guy used the 2nd lifter (sbc) . took awhile to figure out what was wrong . like said many times , don't listen to the bow tie dudes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,012 Posts
TDC compression both valves are closed tight. TDC at the beginning of the intake stroke both valves are open. Intake just opening, exhaust just closing, thats why its called overlap.

Get a degree wheel and use it. Those Summit timing chain sets have been known to be off a full tooth.

Once the cam is installed to spec assemble the engine and remove #1 spark plug. Stick your finger in the hole and bump the starter until you feel air pushing out the cylinder.. Bring the timing mark around to 10 degrees before and drop in the distributor. never fails.

dkp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
hey guys,
i filled up the Exh ports full of gas and had 1 valve leaking and filled the intake ports and had 2 intake valves leaking gas. thats 3 valves on the pass side, not leaking bad more like weeping, if there bent it must be only 1 thou or so. but they do leak. i have not done the driver side head yet. the valves that are leaking could that be from just wear? or are they actually bent? i guess i'll be better off replacing all the exh valves with the A-429 valves.

questio, do i have to send the heads out to a shop that has the special cutter for the valve seats or can any machine shop handle replacing the valves?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,231 Posts
Find a good shop to do the valvejob! And I have had aftermarket chains that were 180 off not very uncommon. Like side before when you get it assembled put your thumb over the #1 plug hole and set it at 10 degrees before tdc and drop your distributor in there always works!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,607 Posts
Are you using an SA timing set? If so it's probably machined wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
Are you using an SA timing set? If so it's probably machined wrong.
critter is definately onto something here, the last guy i knew that recently bought summit's steel billet timing set had similar issues, he also bought their balancer, and rockers, etc.....he had nothing but problems with this engine
i went over to see if i could help, end result was a tear down. what i discovered was that the bottom gear was a "made in usa" gear while the top gear was unmarked, the chain was marked "made in japan".i put my degree wheel on it and discovered that you could not get it any closer than 1.5* of where we wanted it no matter what you done, It Was Machined Wrong. Took that off and bought a cloyes and degreed it in on the money.i compared the summit balancer to a new pioneer and the summit balancer was off by 5 degrees, threw that POS on the bench. next were the roller rockers, found several rough feeling spots as you rolled them around, more scrap on the bench, < Do You See The Pattern Here> . Finally after taking off everything that was summit brand the motor is correct and all is well. For those of you who think summit only does this to ford guys, Wrong ! this was a chevy, small block chevy at that. Hopefully this story will help someone out there, don't believe everything a summit tech/sales guy tells you, most of them have never even seen the inside of an engine, but they can read from a script pretty well:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
i have a wheel, i'll check it out tomorrow, i'll have to find the cam card.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
OK guys,
the summit billet timing chain cam gear was machined wrong! the gear would not go down all the way onto the cam and cam pin, it only would go on about 1/4".

they told me to send it back there was a machining defect in that gear for some reason, so i bought a TrickFlow billet chain and it works like it should. what a mess, this has turned out to be a nightmare. And i have to say that this is really the first thing that summit sold me (their brand) that was messed up. oh well it happens.

i would stay away from the summit brand billet chain just to let you guys out there know whats going on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,286 Posts
If a cam is installed 180* out, just rotate the crank one revolution and it'll be dead on correct. Oh, Chilton's says to put the timing chain marks at 12 o'clock on both. It's much easier to mess up and get it one tooth off this way compared to doing the 6 o'clock cam gear, 12 o'clock crank gear method. As always, one crankshaft turn will make it 12/12 instead of 6/12 and repeat over and over however many times you want to spin it. The summit tech advice sounded right, doesn't matter if it's a chevy or ford. Intake lifter on number 1 cylinder. Rotate until lifter goes up (valve opening) and then goes back down (end of intake stroke). Then rotate crank clockwise until number 1 piston is as TDC. This will be TDC on compression stroke for that cylinder. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Chevy and Ford engines both do this.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top