Pictures

 

Any takers at all? 😩

 

Have you checked the CAT?
Anti freeze from a bad head gasket can contribute to CAT plugging.
That might explain the lack of power.
Matt

 

I haven’t visually checked it. They only way i knew how was using the vacuum gauge. I do plan on pulling it off and visually checking it, just need to find the time.

 

I have a question that leads to an unpopular opinion. How long has that k&n been on there?

 

put it in when i had everything torn apart so i never ran it without it. I’ve found a bit here and there about them. What’s your take?

 

Well it's unrelated now, but I've found that they have a tendency to put a film a of oil on IATs, putting them in a little jacket that makes the ECM think incoming air is colder than it is, leading to a rich condition.

Anyway, I'd Hook a fuel pressure gauge up, and cycle the key a couple times until the pressure in the rail stabilizes. If it drops off real quick, you may a have a leaky injector or two. It doesn't necessarily rule out the rpv in the pump, but a pair of hose pinch of pliers can rule that out.

 

A quick way to check the CAT:
Start it up and run it for only a minute.
Feel the exhaust pipe before and after the CAT.

 

Moving this thread over here because I've run out of ideas on another ford forum. I will give the whole story.

Picked up my 92 f350 with the 460 efi (OBD1) not long ago from a guys drive where it sat with a blown head gasket. I pulled the heads and sent em down to the machine shop for good measure and did the head gasket and replaced everything else on my way out. I did the plugs, wires, rotor, water pump, thermostat, vacuum hose harness, pcv, radiator, hose, fuel pumps, fuel filter, air filter (k&n).

The thing actually runs pretty well but there is for sure lack of power. I noticed it smelled pretty rich which lead me to pull the plugs and they confirmed that its running rich on all 8. I made sure to confirm the gap before I put them back in. I know mpg is not good on these things but I'm getting 6.8 and I am babying this thing like no other with no change.

So what I've done or checked so far:
MAP sensor is reading appropriate resistance and Htz
IAC appropriate Ohms although it was very dirty so I cleaned it and put it back in. I will attach a picture below.
ECT appropriate Ohms
Replaced 02 sensor
egr position sensor is reading about 1000 ohms off when I apply vacuum to it but I can hear it moving with vacuum applied
Pulled the computer out, I don't see anything obvious. Capacitors all look good I even check with a black light. there was some mild corrosion on the outside of the case with a tiny bit that made it onto the inside but I don't see anything on the board. Also will attach pictures below
I did find an exhaust leak on the manifolds, fixed that and no change.
I searched and search for a vacuum leak but I can't find anything after making it rain carb cleaner.
I had one check engine light for a torque converter slip code
Timing is set at 13
As far as I can tell there is not exhaust restriction. set the rpm at 3000 with a vacuum gauge hooked up and vacuum stayed at 18 the whole time. so I'm guessing the cat is good.
Fuel pressure regulator is good, no fuel in vacuum line and fuel pressure is 30 psi, will jump to 40 psi with a snap of the throttle.
I had the injectors rebuilt and tested for good measure when I first got it.

Im sure if forgetting things but the rich smell every time I walk by my truck is driving me crazy and I really want to figure this out.

Hi,
I'm not real familiar with Fuel Injection, but it might be your injectors are too big and dumping to much gas? The CAT should be burning off the extra gas. If you're smelling a rich gas mixture, (think the old days before CATS) then I don't think your CAT is working. If the mixture was real rich, the cat would be heating up and glowing red. Had that happen on my 89 Stang one time with water in the gas. good luck.

 

Any update?

 

"Well it's unrelated now, but I've found that they have a tendency to put a film a of oil on IATs, putting them in a little jacket that makes the ECM think incoming air is colder than it is, leading to a rich condition. "
Why I only use a "K&N" style filter on carbureted race cars. Never on a street EFI type vehicle. They are 90% marketing hype IMHO anyway. Quality paper filters work just fine, have for a gazillion miles on 1000s of vehicles.

Have a 1993 F-350 7.5L - first thing I had to do when we bought it from an old couple was to replace the cat. I used an aftermarket cat from Summit, but technically the cat could come off the truck - unless your local inspection would have them crawl under, or tail pipe the truck. Depending, I'd think an early 90s vehicle could now be exempt.

Also note - "rich smell" in many cases is not fat but a lean condition. The fat smell is from unburned fuel escaping from mild misfire conditions. So don't overlook air leak issues. If you're is like ours, 10 MPG is about right at 70~75 with no wind and going downhill at least part of the time.

Also, IIRC I set my truck to use 12 degree lead with the SPOUT (IIRC the name) connector unpluggted. Stock is 10 I think.

 

"Well it's unrelated now, but I've found that they have a tendency to put a film a of oil on IATs, putting them in a little jacket that makes the ECM think incoming air is colder than it is, leading to a rich condition. "
Why I only use a "K&N" style filter on carbureted race cars. Never on a street EFI type vehicle. They are 90% marketing hype IMHO anyway. Quality paper filters work just fine, have for a gazillion miles on 1000s of vehicles.

Have a 1993 F-350 7.5L - first thing I had to do when we bought it from an old couple was to replace the cat. I used an aftermarket cat from Summit, but technically the cat could come off the truck - unless your local inspection would have them crawl under, or tail pipe the truck. Depending, I'd think an early 90s vehicle could now be exempt.

Also note - "rich smell" in many cases is not fat but a lean condition. The fat smell is from unburned fuel escaping from mild misfire conditions. So don't overlook air leak issues. If you're is like ours, 10 MPG is about right at 70~75 with no wind and going downhill at least part of the time.

Also, IIRC I set my truck to use 12 degree lead with the SPOUT (IIRC the name) connector unpluggted. Stock is 10 I think.

Thank you so much for all that info that was awesome. I’ve currently moved on to another issue at this point haha. Now my e4od is mad at me. Shifting fine but overheating pretty substantially when towing and getting a torque converter slip code. Im going to swap the tourque converter for a quality one. I’ve read that racer c is the way to go but i can’t actually seem to find there web site.
I’m sitting at high 7s to low 8s mpg wise still and still running rich by my best guess. Spark plus still look rich and getting a lot of condinsation from the tale pipe.

Okay, first off. I'll help you as much as I can because I'm an efi 460 nut head like other people here. Basically what I'm saying is that I rather almost fully comprehend the system. Might be something. Else someone could teach me, we'll see. I've read every last word on this post and here's my suggestion to you:

1. Check Throttle Position Sensor.
Note: Make sure it is in spec for voltage at idle and wide open. Then slowly open it from idle to WOT and if it has a voltage drop along the way then replace it asap. I also suggest tracing the signal wire back to the pcm and back probe it there and repeat the process.
Note #2. TPS doesn't do much for the efi system but it does help the dumb **** that obd1 is. I have a 1994. The PCMs are different believe it or not. Sams pin count but different on the inside.

2. These are not mass air flow systems, they're speed density. You could run any filter you want on them and the engine won't know the difference. You can run without anything going to the throttle body and she'll run the same. Proper air fuel ratio of gasoline engines is 14.7:1. Basically you should make sure your air filter is correct for the engine and not too restrictive because the injectors will always fire the same amount of fuel and have little range of adjustment. Just enough to work with the atmospheric pressure ranges.

3. You might've checked the MAP sensor but did you make sure there is no break in the vacuum line? Pull the line off the back of the throttle body bend, be careful as it may be brittle. Suck on it or get a vacuum tool. Make sure it holds pressure. Use your best judgment if you do the first one.

4. You checked your fuel pressure with and without vacuum hose connected to the regulator. With the hose connected and a little rev it should jump up. I would also check the bleed off time. Have the truck off, turn the key on to prime the pump, wait until it shuts off, turn the key off, check fuel pressure, go inside and have a grab a beer and eat a sandwich, then come out and check the pressure. Look up what the bleed off time should be. This will help you figure out if your rebuilt injectors hold pressure with your pump psi. Never know what psi they run when testing them after a rebuild.

5. I suggest hooking up your timing light and make sure the timing advance is working correctly. Rev it up and watch the it advance.

6. You've checked the codes but was that KOEO (Key On Engine Off) or KOER (Key On Engine Running). Been a while since I've done it but to do KOER you have to get the truck up to temp. Shut it off, connect your jumper wire, start the truck and it'll rev to around 1,500 rpm and sit there for a while. The moment it comes back to idle you turn the steering wheel left then right (can't remember if it is a 90° turn from center or if it is fully left then right), after doing that you hit the brake and let off, turn off OD then back on, and wait. After a minute it'll flash one light, floor the truck really quick but don't hold it down. Once you floor it quickly let off just as fast. After a little wait you'll have codes. If you have no trouble codes it'll give you the code 111 (System OK (meaning the PCM is functioning properly)), a pause, then 111 again. If you have codes it'll give them to you between the two 111 codes. If you have no codes and wait a while it'll flash 111 two more times so save yourself time and shut the key off.

Education: When cold starting it should do high idle. It will be in open loop operation until the O2 sensor hits a certain temperature then it switches to closed loop operation. Obd1 systems are bank fire injection. The left 4 injectors will fire all at once then the right side then repeat. Obd2 systems have sequential injection. Anway, in open loop cold start the PCM is reading the MAP sensor, IAT sensor, and ECT sensor in order to make an air fuel ratio. Open loop air fuel ratio is rich as hell. I can lope my throttle and blow black smoke from my tail pipe and make the engine bounce from 500 to 1k rpms. Almost made it stall once lol. My 24v cummins doesn't even blow smoke except from start up. The rich open loop operation acts as a choke on a carbed vehicle. Obviously doesn't help it start but it helps it heat up quicker as you're burning more fuel. Once the truck goes into closed loop operation the pcm will read the 02 sensor and lean out the fuel ratio to 14.7:1. Although ford always tuned their trucks to run a little rich from the getgo and chevy ran theirs more lean. A little rich helps with low end torque. I forgot if you can test to see if it goes into closed loop but you can Google it to find out.

-- I have diagrams out the *** if you need any. Wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in the Haynes manual for the truck as well. Helps out sometimes.


If anything else occurs to me then I'll run my happy *** over here and let you know. Best of luck.

Thank you so much for all that info that was awesome. I’ve currently moved on to another issue at this point haha. Now my e4od is mad at me. Shifting fine but overheating pretty substantially when towing and getting a torque converter slip code. Im going to swap the tourque converter for a quality one. I’ve read that racer c is the way to go but i can’t actually seem to find there web site.
I’m sitting at high 7s to low 8s mpg wise still and still running rich by my best guess. Spark plugs still look rich and getting a lot of condinsation from the tale pipe.

1. TPS appears to be spot on, just follower the sensor check procedure in the Hanes manual which was super helpful but all readings were within limits

2. double check the air filter, shouldbe good on that front. I’m not sure if this was nothing but the air intake hose leves the air box and goes out the front of the grille. I did find that to be a bit disformed and slightly folded in on its self. Nothing significant but not the exact shape or should be so i adressedthat.
3. As for vacuum leaks everyone’s and to the map sensor…. I’ve scowered high and low for something but i came up with a whole lot of nothing everything looks good.
4. I did check bleed off time, holds pressure. Good on that’s front

5. I have not however checked advance… never thought of that so i will take a look at that thank you!!
6. I have done KOEO AND KOER only thing i had was a tourque converter slip code.
I really appreciate all the thought. I’m going to dig back into it in the next few weeks after I’m done with the trans stuff

 

Okay, first off. I'll help you as much as I can because I'm an efi 460 nut head like other people here. Basically what I'm saying is that I rather almost fully comprehend the system. Might be something. Else someone could teach me, we'll see. I've read every last word on this post and here's my suggestion to you:

1. Check Throttle Position Sensor.
Note: Make sure it is in spec for voltage at idle and wide open. Then slowly open it from idle to WOT and if it has a voltage drop along the way then replace it asap. I also suggest tracing the signal wire back to the pcm and back probe it there and repeat the process.
Note #2. TPS doesn't do much for the efi system but it does help the dumb **** that obd1 is. I have a 1994. The PCMs are different believe it or not. Sams pin count but different on the inside.

2. These are not mass air flow systems, they're speed density. You could run any filter you want on them and the engine won't know the difference. You can run without anything going to the throttle body and she'll run the same. Proper air fuel ratio of gasoline engines is 14.7:1. Basically you should make sure your air filter is correct for the engine and not too restrictive because the injectors will always fire the same amount of fuel and have little range of adjustment. Just enough to work with the atmospheric pressure ranges.

3. You might've checked the MAP sensor but did you make sure there is no break in the vacuum line? Pull the line off the back of the throttle body bend, be careful as it may be brittle. Suck on it or get a vacuum tool. Make sure it holds pressure. Use your best judgment if you do the first one.

4. You checked your fuel pressure with and without vacuum hose connected to the regulator. With the hose connected and a little rev it should jump up. I would also check the bleed off time. Have the truck off, turn the key on to prime the pump, wait until it shuts off, turn the key off, check fuel pressure, go inside and have a grab a beer and eat a sandwich, then come out and check the pressure. Look up what the bleed off time should be. This will help you figure out if your rebuilt injectors hold pressure with your pump psi. Never know what psi they run when testing them after a rebuild.

5. I suggest hooking up your timing light and make sure the timing advance is working correctly. Rev it up and watch the it advance.

6. You've checked the codes but was that KOEO (Key On Engine Off) or KOER (Key On Engine Running). Been a while since I've done it but to do KOER you have to get the truck up to temp. Shut it off, connect your jumper wire, start the truck and it'll rev to around 1,500 rpm and sit there for a while. The moment it comes back to idle you turn the steering wheel left then right (can't remember if it is a 90° turn from center or if it is fully left then right), after doing that you hit the brake and let off, turn off OD then back on, and wait. After a minute it'll flash one light, floor the truck really quick but don't hold it down. Once you floor it quickly let off just as fast. After a little wait you'll have codes. If you have no trouble codes it'll give you the code 111 (System OK (meaning the PCM is functioning properly)), a pause, then 111 again. If you have codes it'll give them to you between the two 111 codes. If you have no codes and wait a while it'll flash 111 two more times so save yourself time and shut the key off.

Education: When cold starting it should do high idle. It will be in open loop operation until the O2 sensor hits a certain temperature then it switches to closed loop operation. Obd1 systems are bank fire injection. The left 4 injectors will fire all at once then the right side then repeat. Obd2 systems have sequential injection. Anway, in open loop cold start the PCM is reading the MAP sensor, IAT sensor, and ECT sensor in order to make an air fuel ratio. Open loop air fuel ratio is rich as hell. I can lope my throttle and blow black smoke from my tail pipe and make the engine bounce from 500 to 1k rpms. Almost made it stall once lol. My 24v cummins doesn't even blow smoke except from start up. The rich open loop operation acts as a choke on a carbed vehicle. Obviously doesn't help it start but it helps it heat up quicker as you're burning more fuel. Once the truck goes into closed loop operation the pcm will read the 02 sensor and lean out the fuel ratio to 14.7:1. Although ford always tuned their trucks to run a little rich from the getgo and chevy ran theirs more lean. A little rich helps with low end torque. I forgot if you can test to see if it goes into closed loop but you can Google it to find out.

-- I have diagrams out the *** if you need any. Wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in the Haynes manual for the truck as well. Helps out sometimes.


If anything else occurs to me then I'll run my happy *** over here and let you know. Best of luck.

 

Has there been any findings to fix this issue as of yet from the OP? I have a 1990 F250 with a 460 same issue about ready to set it on fire.

Okay, first off. I'll help you as much as I can because I'm an efi 460 nut head like other people here. Basically what I'm saying is that I rather almost fully comprehend the system. Might be something. Else someone could teach me, we'll see. I've read every last word on this post and here's my suggestion to you:

1. Check Throttle Position Sensor.
Note: Make sure it is in spec for voltage at idle and wide open. Then slowly open it from idle to WOT and if it has a voltage drop along the way then replace it asap. I also suggest tracing the signal wire back to the pcm and back probe it there and repeat the process.
Note #2. TPS doesn't do much for the efi system but it does help the dumb **** that obd1 is. I have a 1994. The PCMs are different believe it or not. Sams pin count but different on the inside.

2. These are not mass air flow systems, they're speed density. You could run any filter you want on them and the engine won't know the difference. You can run without anything going to the throttle body and she'll run the same. Proper air fuel ratio of gasoline engines is 14.7:1. Basically you should make sure your air filter is correct for the engine and not too restrictive because the injectors will always fire the same amount of fuel and have little range of adjustment. Just enough to work with the atmospheric pressure ranges.

3. You might've checked the MAP sensor but did you make sure there is no break in the vacuum line? Pull the line off the back of the throttle body bend, be careful as it may be brittle. Suck on it or get a vacuum tool. Make sure it holds pressure. Use your best judgment if you do the first one.

4. You checked your fuel pressure with and without vacuum hose connected to the regulator. With the hose connected and a little rev it should jump up. I would also check the bleed off time. Have the truck off, turn the key on to prime the pump, wait until it shuts off, turn the key off, check fuel pressure, go inside and have a grab a beer and eat a sandwich, then come out and check the pressure. Look up what the bleed off time should be. This will help you figure out if your rebuilt injectors hold pressure with your pump psi. Never know what psi they run when testing them after a rebuild.

5. I suggest hooking up your timing light and make sure the timing advance is working correctly. Rev it up and watch the it advance.

6. You've checked the codes but was that KOEO (Key On Engine Off) or KOER (Key On Engine Running). Been a while since I've done it but to do KOER you have to get the truck up to temp. Shut it off, connect your jumper wire, start the truck and it'll rev to around 1,500 rpm and sit there for a while. The moment it comes back to idle you turn the steering wheel left then right (can't remember if it is a 90° turn from center or if it is fully left then right), after doing that you hit the brake and let off, turn off OD then back on, and wait. After a minute it'll flash one light, floor the truck really quick but don't hold it down. Once you floor it quickly let off just as fast. After a little wait you'll have codes. If you have no trouble codes it'll give you the code 111 (System OK (meaning the PCM is functioning properly)), a pause, then 111 again. If you have codes it'll give them to you between the two 111 codes. If you have no codes and wait a while it'll flash 111 two more times so save yourself time and shut the key off.

Education: When cold starting it should do high idle. It will be in open loop operation until the O2 sensor hits a certain temperature then it switches to closed loop operation. Obd1 systems are bank fire injection. The left 4 injectors will fire all at once then the right side then repeat. Obd2 systems have sequential injection. Anway, in open loop cold start the PCM is reading the MAP sensor, IAT sensor, and ECT sensor in order to make an air fuel ratio. Open loop air fuel ratio is rich as hell. I can lope my throttle and blow black smoke from my tail pipe and make the engine bounce from 500 to 1k rpms. Almost made it stall once lol. My 24v cummins doesn't even blow smoke except from start up. The rich open loop operation acts as a choke on a carbed vehicle. Obviously doesn't help it start but it helps it heat up quicker as you're burning more fuel. Once the truck goes into closed loop operation the pcm will read the 02 sensor and lean out the fuel ratio to 14.7:1. Although ford always tuned their trucks to run a little rich from the getgo and chevy ran theirs more lean. A little rich helps with low end torque. I forgot if you can test to see if it goes into closed loop but you can Google it to find out.

-- I have diagrams out the *** if you need any. Wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in the Haynes manual for the truck as well. Helps out sometimes.


If anything else occurs to me then I'll run my happy *** over here and let you know. Best of luck.

Moving this thread over here because I've run out of ideas on another ford forum. I will give the whole story.

Picked up my 92 f350 with the 460 efi (OBD1) not long ago from a guys drive where it sat with a blown head gasket. I pulled the heads and sent em down to the machine shop for good measure and did the head gasket and replaced everything else on my way out. I did the plugs, wires, rotor, water pump, thermostat, vacuum hose harness, pcv, radiator, hose, fuel pumps, fuel filter, air filter (k&n).

The thing actually runs pretty well but there is for sure lack of power. I noticed it smelled pretty rich which lead me to pull the plugs and they confirmed that its running rich on all 8. I made sure to confirm the gap before I put them back in. I know mpg is not good on these things but I'm getting 6.8 and I am babying this thing like no other with no change.

So what I've done or checked so far:
MAP sensor is reading appropriate resistance and Htz
IAC appropriate Ohms although it was very dirty so I cleaned it and put it back in. I will attach a picture below.
ECT appropriate Ohms
Replaced 02 sensor
egr position sensor is reading about 1000 ohms off when I apply vacuum to it but I can hear it moving with vacuum applied
Pulled the computer out, I don't see anything obvious. Capacitors all look good I even check with a black light. there was some mild corrosion on the outside of the case with a tiny bit that made it onto the inside but I don't see anything on the board. Also will attach pictures below
I did find an exhaust leak on the manifolds, fixed that and no change.
I searched and search for a vacuum leak but I can't find anything after making it rain carb cleaner.
I had one check engine light for a torque converter slip code
Timing is set at 13
As far as I can tell there is not exhaust restriction. set the rpm at 3000 with a vacuum gauge hooked up and vacuum stayed at 18 the whole time. so I'm guessing the cat is good.
Fuel pressure regulator is good, no fuel in vacuum line and fuel pressure is 30 psi, will jump to 40 psi with a snap of the throttle.
I had the injectors rebuilt and tested for good measure when I first got it.

Im sure if forgetting things but the rich smell every time I walk by my truck is driving me crazy and I really want to figure this out.

Have you resolved this issue yet? I'm having the same issue with a 1990.

 

Same question, did the running rich insure get resolved?

 

I'm also having the same issue but intermittent. Pulled Code 173 and have an intermittent stumble when running down the road at 60 mph. Engine lugs down and starts missing but usually doesn't throw a CEL. I've changed A LOT of parts on it but most of them before this issue started. Now I'm firing the parts cannon at it in hopes that replacing some of the 29 year old parts will cure it!