What damage did it do to your Kaase heads? Bent valves? Are there marks where the intake valves were hitting the pistons or anything?

 

Well you sold off all the parts BEFORE having a reputable Ford engine builder look at it and as you stated you over RPM'ed it ? makes this an unanswerable question.

 

Why ?



x2

You say the the main and rods bearings are fine ? But when you sold the crank you stated it had damage on #7 rod journal ? The bearing can't be fine then ? Or am I missing something ?

 

Find out what really caused it before pointing at manufacture. Could have been # of things. From what I've heard Probe has quality parts

 

Call me pragmatic or something else, but the o.p.'s point is lost on me.

He's asking if anybody's done business with CHP, no?

He then tells a story that his engine, supposedly bought from CHP and fitted with a Kaase pump and heads, proceeded to have a connecting rod come apart. Has the O.P. contacted CHP? Is he hear simply to stir the pot?

CHP is, by all accounts, a reputable business and shop. Does CHP manufacture their own connecting rods, crankshafts and pistons? No. Do any said parts come with an explicit or implied warranty? No.

That said, has the O.P. contacted CHP yet (let alone first) to see what their response to his trouble is? I don't know.

 

C'mon guys ... nobody ever wants to point the finger at themselves and acknowledge that maybe it was something which they had control over which could have been the problem.

Why should this be any different...?

 

To answer the OP's original question , yes, I have used Probe, Coast parts in multiple engines.. I have gotten good service and life from the parts.
Any issues We had, were self-inficted.

We've used their parts in 410W dirt car motors all the way up to 557 drag motors.

 

im not pointing my finger at anyone.. all i was asking was if anyone used CHP or Probe parts and yes i did contact CHP about that and asked them why i lost #7 rod and all they could tell me was they didnt know and left it at that. i did pull the motor to 7k but it should of held together. as for Kaase heads, i bent 7 valves 5 exhaust and 2 intakes they kissed the pistons when the cam dowel pin sherred off when the motor locked up. as for Kaase i spoke with Roger a few times about this and they were great about helping me with information and help. i just dont know why i lost that rod

 

Can you post any pictures of where the valves hit the pistons,,,,and also of the damage to the p-51 heads?

Thanks.

 

Just a stab in the dark here but I would bet the pin in the cam shared first causing everything to happen after that especially if it happened at 7000 RPMs. What size cam and what were the pressures on the valve springs? What were piston to valve clearances? Did you have the cam double dowelled? I have had good experience with Coast myself.

 

all rod bearing were fine but #7 it was missing out the pan as for the cam dowel pin being sheared off i think that happen after the #7 rod explode because when i disassemble the motor i found part of the #7 rod cap and bolt wedge up in the cam lopei will try to post some pic of the piston were the valves tap as for the cam size it was a 780 lift it was a comp/kaase mafia cam

 

Based on the statement above, I'm thinking maybe a rod bolt broke first,,and then it broke #7 rod. To me that sounds like a more logical sequence of events.

 

not to sound dumb but what would made the rod bolt break I know that the rods had ARP bolts in them and everything was new and only had 2 runs on the motorand I was looking at the build sheet and it said maximum rpm allowed was 8000 the highest I pull with that motor was 7100 RPM's the motor was built for use of nitrous and said it was built for 1000 horsepower I never use nitrous on that motorI'm just trying to find out what was wrong so I don't do it to my next motor when I have someone build it thanks

 

I'm just trying to find out what was wrong so I don't do it to my next motor when I have someone build it thanks

If you're serious about spinning it that hard, go with a shorter stroke and better rod bolts.

You should also be prepared to deal with parts failing and engines being destroyed on a regular basis. When you're playing with that kind of power level, anything can happen.

 

I don't think you can say the rod went first with any authority and nobody is going to be able to figure it out now. Really need to look at this stuff first hand and even then sometime it is hard. Looking at pictures over the internet rarely is good enough and we don't even have those to look at and speculate.

What information you did supply I can say this:

1) On a solid roller cam like that it should be double pinned. I assume it at least had a 7/16" bolt.

2) Sounds like the rod bolt broke. You say it was an ARP bolt, but which one? 7,100 RPM with a 4.5" stroke is a lot of stress on the rod. If it was mine it would have at least a ARP 2000 bolt in it. If it was an 8740 then it was marginal at best. The other question is if the bolt was properly tensioned.

3) You give no information on what valves and springs were in your heads. Just as easily could have started as valve float or not enough guide clearance. Was the piston to valve clearance even checked?

Steve

 

as for the heads I bought the heads complete from kaase with that cam which theheads was setup forand yes I did use a7 16th Bolt arp that snapped too the rods did come with the 8740 rod bolts from chp. and my build sheet said the maximum rpm with was 8000 and the motor was supposed to be good for 1000 horsepower as for the headsthe valve sizing Springs are what kaase send out with his complete mechanical roller headsand asfor valve clearance to piston I did check it I don't have the number with me but it was what I was recommended at CHp

 

Having experience a similar crash (minus the rod breakage) I would suspect the valve train also. Our deal was a 557 inch, .700+ roller with appropriate springs (A429 heads) with a cam phase issue. This happened in the lights at ~7K rpm and one of the damaged intakes stuck in the head of a piston which bent the H-beam rod ~20 degrees when it hit the head. Ultimately, we found that the one thing that ensures the cam doesn't slip, clamping force of the bolt/washer, was not adequate (wrong washer). The washer was small in dia. which allowed one of the 2 cam pins to back out of the cam and the other to shear when the cam gear slip. I put a brand X hard washer and the grade 8 7/16 bolt and have had no other issues.
8740 ARP cap screws in the rods are doing fine, but we typically run the motor 6500.

Food for thought...

 

cam bolt

That is a good point you brought up about the double pin and the cam bolt. It is not only good enough to double pin and use a 7 /16 bolt but the washer must be a heavy washer. Once the cam gear is on the cam, attention must paid to the cam gear/cam snout. Kasse has talked about this in the past as there are a couple ways to address the issue.

FWIW Mark

 

A 4.5" stroke at 8,000 RPM is an average piston speed of 100 feet per second so. with a regular 1/16" thick ring pack, there is no way it will remain stable at that engine speed; much less a steel intake valve at 150 grams.

Power would drop off long before that, no matter what the cam and heads were like.

 

I have seen double pins sheered with the cam bolt being .375. The pin locates the cam for timing purposes, and helps hold the torsional load to some degree. But the main thing holding the cam gear stationary is the clamping force of the bolt and washer.

You bolt needs to be .4375 and grade 8 or better and a hardened washer that is big enough in diameter to clamp all the way to the outside if the flat on the cam face and gear.

I have ran this setup with only one pin with no failures.

With out the parts to look at we are wasting our breathes discussing it.

Randy is correct about the 8000 rpm and the 4.5 inch stroke.

 

You have referred to the build sheet a couple of times, and said the short block was good to 8000 rpm and 1000 Hp. So may I ask where you got the short block?

It has already been pointed out that the washer under the grade 8 cam bolt has to be a big thick, strong washer. I actually use a small block Chevy harmonic balancer washer and buy them 20 at a time from Speciality Fasteners. Lem always makes sure to order the 7'16" cam bolt on his Comp Cams, and it works out well with the SBC dampner washer i.d. of 7/16". Then use red Loctite and torque it to 60 -65 lbs. The grade 8 bolt needs to be plenty long and should have a shoulder on it also.

 

Charlie, I use 70-75 lbs ft w/thread lock depending on the bolt.....could be 80# with a rod bolt but most persons [including me] do not usually have one and a lot of the threads are not fine which precludes the use of a rod bolt. You are dead on about the very thick washer and 65# is waaay better than the 3/8" stuff.

Most cam pin failures i've witnessed have been related to the washer deflecting and negate the the bolt tq. ...the 'clamping' effect is gone and when the cam gear woobles the pin are soon gone.

As Blake and others have said....the pin was designed to put the cam timing correct.
Now that spring pressures and rocker ratios have increased much....a cam pin/bolt/washer that resided in the '63 221" V8 Fairlane that I drove in the winter of '69/'70 aint gonna cut it in today's performance 385 BBF.

 

Well with all this talk of cam bolts, washers, and pins and what does the holding I'll add this to the pile.

My old boss had a customer ran a dirt modified. Cam had all that good stuff and was assembled correctly, but had only one pin. One race he got turned around at about 100 mph and slipped the cam gear and sheared the pin. I'd like to know how many of you have tried turning the engine backwards at 100mph??? sounds like a good test to me.

Next time went together had two pins which were verified to be hardened BTW. Well guess what he did it again in one of the races, but this time the cam gear did not slip, pins did not shear and no damage was done.

I will say I've heard this bolt clamps the gear thing for a long time, pin just locates gear... and just have to wonder. Never hear anything about the press fit between cam and gear.

I'd love to know what the engineers who designed this stuff intended. If all that keeps the gear from slipping is clamping force from a bolt then I'd say this is one lame design, but seems if the bolt is big and strong enought, and the washer hard and thick enough, and the moon right.... is one way out...

I am thinking GM with it's little three bolts had a better idea.


Steve

 

i'd guess the engineers would do more testing if they'd been dealing with .800 lift roller cams.

 

The Danny Bee deal offers a 4340 chomoly pin.....std with the belt drive...but available to all.

 

thanks all you guys with this great information i learned a lot here it might of cost me a motor but i learned a lot thanks now i need to find a new engine buider

 

Lots of good info here, but time for a stupid noob question. Can you order cams with 7/16 threads or are you guys actually drilling and tapping them?

 

Yes and Yes to both questions ... If a big roller cam comes through for a 3/8" bolt I drill & tap it to accept a 1/2 inch bolt.

 

Huh, cool! 7/16 bolt and double pinned... Check.

 

A little history on the 7/16" cam bolt: Back in the 1980s, Van started putting his Ford 460 roller cams on the mill and boring the 3/8" cam bolt holes to 7/16" on all his cams. One day he was talking to Chuck Seyler (Van & Billy made the first ever billet Boss heads for Seyler) and Van brought up the 7/16" cam bolt modification with him.

Seyler replied he had been doing the same thing with his cams. Then, Seyler just starting ordering his custom cam grinds from Crane that way (would specify the addition of a 7/16" cam gear bolt hole during his cam order). Sometime thereafter, Crane simply began offering the 7/16" cam bolt as a standard feature on their camshafts. The majority of the cam companies caught on and followed suit.

Paul

 

Very interesting

 

Yes......

 

I still want to see pictures of the carnage.

 

I can post a pic of the damaged journal on the crank, but it's not very exciting. Motor definitely stopped in short order. There is some heat discoloration. You can see where a rod hit one of the counterweights, but nothing else of note. Any bets on whether or not the crankshaft shop can repair it?

 

NO

I kinda think that this motor got pitched out like a nasty turd and he flushed it before getting up and taking a look at it !!!
NO PICS PLEASE