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A460 Block Question

7.5K views 48 replies 10 participants last post by  Phantasea466  
G
#1 ·
I have noticed that everyone else's A460 block has the extra head bolt bosses are machined,drilled, & tapped. Mine isn't. Did I just get lucky :? or did I get an early production block right after they started adding the bosses to the castings. I got this block from RDI back in September 1995. Here is a pic.Just curious to see if anyone has run across one like this.
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#6 ·
Chris,

With out those bosses being machined on the bottom you won't have the clearence needed to install the "Z" bar lifters for the Boss 9 heads, my block is machined and they are still a very tight fit and pita to install.

Rob
 
#8 ·
67stang1 said:
Chris,

With out those bosses being machined on the bottom you won't have the clearence needed to install the "Z" bar lifters for the Boss 9 heads, my block is machined and they are still a very tight fit and pita to install.

Rob
Picture for reference

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#9 ·
Hemi

Chris,
On the A-500 block with the Tom Roberts B441 Hemi heads you have to cut the bosses off for push rod clearance. You should mock up the head on the block for additional machining for the push rods.

Even though you have an older A-460 casting with the unmachined bosses, there were some with porosity and core shift then like the ones FRPP is selling now. I would sonic check those areas if you need to machne push rod reliefs.

The B-460 block came without bosses and had push rod reliefs machined. They were cast in 1991 and had 351C mains and 10.315 decks.

Chris, I'm pretty sure we discussed this on one of your phone calls along with the oiling system.

The dual rotor Titan oil pump you have put's a bunch of oil through the engine. There is a quite a bit of force applied to the distributor to drive that pump as well. A single rotor pressure section external wet sump or a dry sump are the best options for oiling. I've always used Peterson and had excellent results.
 
#10 ·
Phantasea466 said:
My block is a thru hole on the top (Inside the lifter galley) and tapped on the bottom (outside block).

Nice coating!


Damon,
Is your block still on the stand, or is that just a previous picture?
When I picked mine up from Lem earlier this year, it was at the machine shop the next day getting the 4.5 bore. I never was known for patience. :)
Good luck with your block, there a great chunk of iron. :wink:
 
#12 ·
Chris,
Here's a pic showing how close the "Z" tie bar is even with the bosses machined, when they are installed or removed the tie bar BARELY clears. You also might be able to see the small reliefs I made for the exhaust push rods using a carbide burr. If you have any questions let me know.

Rob

Image
 
#14 ·
Phantasea466 said:
David,

Unfortunately It's still on the stand awaiting a crank and pistons. However it does have a plastic bag wrapped around it :p

I agree, It's a NICE chunk of IRON!

Thats cool, when it comes together it will be nice.
Lem will give you great advise, he is a fart smeller.

EDIT: I meant to type smart fella, I am a bad typer. :lol:

If he was half as good looking as me, and I was half as smart as him, we both would be studs. 8)
 
G
#15 ·
Thanks for all the advice guys!! I do appreciate it.

Rob, I know about the Z-bar lifters, That is what I got from Carroll Carter when I bought my cam from him. I had to take them back & we went down in his shop & looked at another A460 block & it was machined. I then explained to Mr. Carter that mine were full length bosses. My game plan(as of now) is when I start the hemi build, that when I send the block to be checked & bored, I am going to get those bossed milled down. I also plan on having the snout on my crank shortened so the balancer isn't a 1/2 mile out in front of the engine. Plus I will MT the crank & rods for piece of mind.

Gary, I agree with you about the ext wet pump/dry sump. If I hadn't had so much invested in my vacuum pump set up & engine diaper(legal for TS) then I would have spent the extra money for a dry sump. I am not giving up on my set up as of yet. I have found some issues that I believe were causing my oil starvation problems. But if I can't get the wet sump set up up to par with my wedge motor then I will bite the bullit & go with a dry sump.

I also know why having an engine built costs so much. By the time I clean , check, & get things like I want them(I am a perfectionist & it makes life hard sometimes. :lol: ) takes a ton of time!! But am enjoying learning & knowing that I know EXACTLY what & how my engine is going to be put back together this time. Thanks again everbody for your help!!! :D
 
#16 ·
Chris, Topsportsman916,

If you decide to cut of the underside of your top row of stud bosses, do NOT cut or broach them parallel to the deck. If your block is ever used later on with C-460 heads, those top four studs are not perpendicular to the deck. The are laid out at an 8 degree angle if my memory is correct, (David Willingham, a little help here please), so therefore, the bottom of that stud boss needs to be broached off according, at an 8 degree angle from the deck. If not, then when C-460 studs are used, the washers, nuts and/or bolts won't seat flat.

Hope this helps,
 
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#17 ·
Thanks Charlie. My plan is to basically machine them to what they are now from SVO. I definitely want the option to be able to run a 18 head bolt set up , if I ever decide to go that route. Makes the block more sellable down the road so I can switch to an alum block!!! Sorry I am dreaming now!!! :D
 
#18 ·
oil starvation

TopSportsman916 said:
Thanks for all the advice guys!! I do appreciate it.

Rob, I know about the Z-bar lifters, That is what I got from Carroll Carter when I bought my cam from him. I had to take them back & we went down in his shop & looked at another A460 block & it was machined. I then explained to Mr. Carter that mine were full length bosses. My game plan(as of now) is when I start the hemi build, that when I send the block to be checked & bored, I am going to get those bossed milled down. I also plan on having the snout on my crank shortened so the balancer isn't a 1/2 mile out in front of the engine. Plus I will MT the crank & rods for piece of mind.

Gary, I agree with you about the ext wet pump/dry sump. If I hadn't had so much invested in my vacuum pump set up & engine diaper(legal for TS) then I would have spent the extra money for a dry sump. I am not giving up on my set up as of yet. I have found some issues that I believe were causing my oil starvation problems. But if I can't get the wet sump set up up to par with my wedge motor then I will bite the bullit & go with a dry sump.

I also know why having an engine built costs so much. By the time I clean , check, & get things like I want them(I am a perfectionist & it makes life hard sometimes. :lol: ) takes a ton of time!! But am enjoying learning & knowing that I know EXACTLY what & how my engine is going to be put back together this time. Thanks again everbody for your help!!! :D
Chris,
I would try a melling pump and do a comparison to the Titan pump. The Titan pump with the dual rotor can easily empty the oil pan into the valve covers. The result is oil starvation to your bearings. What type of lifters do you have in your wedge engine?

On your Hemi engine I would use the Crane "Z" bar captured link bar type. You can also modify these into a bolt together link to allow fitment under the unmachined bolt bosses. I had to do that on a C-460 18 bolt low deck block. For high open spring pressures you will need the Crane Ultra-Pro 8620 lifters.

Limit your vacuum to 10". Too much vacuum can pull oil away from the oil pump pick up. On a wet sump I would set the vacuum at the "minimum required to be effective" so as not to interfere with oil supply to the pick up.

I don't think your A-460 oiling system has a problem. It's an excellent oiling system and doesn't need a large capacity pump like the Titan.
 
#19 ·
Chris,

I agree with Gary about the Titan pump possibly being to big. Carroll told me to run the cast Titan sportsman pump on mine, he uses them and told me on his dyno runs he sees virtually no oil pressure fluctuations. I believe it uses the same size gerotor as the HV Melling but has the dual pick ups. I've never had a problem with too much oil on the top end or not enough at the mains.
 
G
#20 ·
My pump is just a single rotor with the dual pick up. I may wind up trying a stock typ pump if I haven't corrected the issue. One thing I am going to do when we run the motor the first time is not run the vacuum pump. I will put the hose on the valve cover to allow the engine to vent. After I get a baseline, I will try the vacuum pump again. It is the only variable other than the Fuel Injection since I ran this engine in my old car. Never had any engine problems just chassis frustrations. Now it is the exact opposite, great chassis/engine problems.

I am also looking to see if I can plumb the vacuum pump through the intake valley pan instead of the valve cover. Can't run it off of the fuel pump cover because I am running a Danny Bee belt drive. Any thoughts on this.

Gary, I believe the lifters I have are the crane ultras. Here is a pic.
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#21 ·
Chris,

When you got your back way back in the 90's, did it come with the roller cam bearings installed? Also, if you don't mind, throw up a picture of the outside of the block, the water jacket side along where the lower row of head bolts are.

Thanks,
 
#23 ·
Oiling

TopSportsman916 said:
My pump is just a single rotor with the dual pick up. I may wind up trying a stock typ pump if I haven't corrected the issue. One thing I am going to do when we run the motor the first time is not run the vacuum pump. I will put the hose on the valve cover to allow the engine to vent. After I get a baseline, I will try the vacuum pump again. It is the only variable other than the Fuel Injection since I ran this engine in my old car. Never had any engine problems just chassis frustrations. Now it is the exact opposite, great chassis/engine problems.

I am also looking to see if I can plumb the vacuum pump through the intake valley pan instead of the valve cover. Can't run it off of the fuel pump cover because I am running a Danny Bee belt drive. Any thoughts on this.

Gary, I believe the lifters I have are the crane ultras. Here is a pic.
Image
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Chris,
Sorry for the mix up on the pump. I had thought you had the dual rotor pump. However you still have an oil distribution problem. To keep things simple I would run a std type pump with your accumulator plumbed into the rear oil pressure port. Don't use the vacuum pump until you have fixed the oiling problem.

Those are in fact the Crane Pro series lifters. They look to have some wear on the bodies. Are you having any sticking or binding lifters? Crane recommends that an adequate oil supply be maintained to form a
complete hydrostatic film arounnd the lifter body. I like to use a .093-.125 restrictor in the rear of the block.

Do you have an early or late style 18 bolt block? The early ones had a full length extension cast onto the exhaust side of the deck. The late ones have individual square bosses for the short 7/16ths exhaust studs. You can lighten the earlier block by machining to look like the later individual bosses. If you have someone with an 18 bolt torque plate you can use it for a guide. You could use mine but it's only for the D/E 18 bolt pattern.
 
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#24 ·
Gary, the lifters didn't show any signs of binding during disaaembly. My block isn't a 18 hole block. I bought mine back in Sep. 95. I went back & looked at Damons pics of his new A460 block. I see the bosses on the outside of the block for the 4 extra head bolts. Mine doesn't have those. Damn, I guess I will stick with the 10 bolt hemi heads!! :lol: Is kind of cool seeing the differences that have occurred over the years.
 
#25 ·
block

TopSportsman916 said:
Gary, the lifters didn't show any signs of binding during disaaembly. My block isn't a 18 hole block. I bought mine back in Sep. 95. I went back & looked at Damons pics of his new A460 block. I see the bosses on the outside of the block for the 4 extra head bolts. Mine doesn't have those. Damn, I guess I will stick with the 10 bolt hemi heads!! :lol: Is kind of cool seeing the differences that have occurred over the years.
I see the pic of your block. You can drill the exhaust bolts. You have the full length extension on the exhaust side of the deck.

When do you plan on testing some oil mods?
 
#26 ·
Chris,

Where I was headed was to see if you had the full length extension on the outside of the block. That's another sign of an early block, and Gary Blair has already explained the rest of the story. Like he said, you can just drill and tap that full length lug for the lower 4 bolt holes, if and when you need them.

Most of the A-600 blocks which came with roller cam bearings had the full length extension.