I guess it would depend on the horsepower goal and intended use. Id say its certainly cheaper and easier to build a 5-600hp 460 vs a 302 or 351. If 300hp is all you are looking for then a basic stock rebuild on a 460 would cost pretty much the same as a basic stock rebuild on a 302. I think the trade off would be torque vs mileage. On a performance build big block stuff is more expensive than small block (stroker kits heads and etc) but the power potential is more with the big block.


How about a little more info? Im sure I didnt make any sense but youve come to the wrong forum to be "talked out of" building a 460.

 

It depends on what you want as in power.

 

Also what you're working on/with.A 79' F-250 with a tired 460 or a 66' mustang roller.If it's already set-up for a BBF it's gonna be cheaper to work with what you have,than if you have to to buy mounts,headers,etc. to change from a small block to a big block.
No Replacement fo Displacement!

 

Well really to suggest what you might want to go with you need to tell us a few thinks first .

What are you going to be using the engine in and for what purpose . Racing , pulling or what ?

What are your ideas on the out come from your engine build ?

What engines do you have now and are they running and complete ?

How much money do you have to spend on your build ?

If you can tell us this information , then we can help you out .

RetroJim

 

Well I have no engine now lol. Well, no Ford anyway. I am looking to get ahold of a 67-68 Mustang fastback to restore and put a 460 in. They're around, I found a decent one that just needed the front clip and an engine on craigslist for only $2500.

So I would be going to the junkyard to pick up the motor I would be building, I guess. I would like to have a 500-600 hp engine in this mustang. I guess that the 460 would probly be the cheapest way to get there, but you never know heh. Those aluminum heads for the 460's cost a pretty penny. As for money.. well I am thinking that this build is going to take about 2 years... hmm. I guess around $8,000. I am looking for a streetable build though, not really a drag racer. Something that has at least some small road manners. And hopefully 10-14MPG. Maybe a 427 would be a better option for these criteria?

 

So I would be going to the junkyard to pick up the motor I would be building, I guess. I would like to have a 500-600 hp engine in this mustang. And hopefully 10-14MPG.

if you wanted the best of both worlds I would build a fuel injected turbo 302 . . .

I "built" (120k mile stock shortblock, ported e7s, f-cam) my motor for probably $700-800, turbo was $80 and the rest of the exhaust/fuell set me back $650 or so.

Figure $1,400 motor complete with turbo kit and it made 505rwhp and 559rwtq.

BUT that was doing everything myself except the valve seats/mill on the heads.

Building a fresh 302 will set you back that amount, and buying a turbo kit from hellion/BG (or even on3) is at a minimum $1,200 . . . not to mention whatever you are going to use to tune it.

But the situation with that is with a stick and 3.27s you could knock down 20mpg (with a light pedal) and still make 500rwhp.

 

Go with the 460. You can add to your build later and get whatever horspower you desire. They are also very durable engines. Just be aware that a lot of people Know nothing about them. Stay on here and big block fords.com and you'll be safe. Randy.

 

If your talking about a 427w, the heads to properly feed that aren't gonna be cheap either. It'd be a shame to put an off the shelf cam in an engine like that as well. Look in the classifieds here, if they arent there any more I'm sure they could be found there was someone selling fms aluminum cobra jets brand new for cheap cheap.With the budget you set I bet you could put together something like a 545 with those heads(prob not optimum dunno) if you shopped smart, and have more power than you'd ever be able to put down on the street at a reasonable rpm and a really streetable camshaft I'm sure.TFS streets are what I'm gonna run for heads(I know I'm building DOVEs too, I addressed that in another post), do a search on those too. Theres a ridiculous amount of info on this site, do alot of searching and reading.
Try this too:
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119213
Jr.

 

I would stay with a big block they are reliable at the hp you are looking at where the small block stuff is right on the ragged edge. For $8000 you can build a really nice 460 stroker with good heads and reliability. I am in gathering and building process of a SCJ 521 that should be around 700 hp and run on 93 octane should have $6000 in it when all said and done. I am starting with a bare block so that should give you an idea of how well power can be built with these engines. Do some research and find a knowledgeable builder and you will be very happy. I have driven 500 hp smallblocks and 500 hp bigblocks and I like the instant torque with the bigblocks and not very impressed with the small blocks as you usually have to wind them sky high to make big hp which is hard on everything in the engine. JMHO

 

[

I know that the terms "big block" and "cost effective" don't really belong in the same sentence...

Basically, which ford engine build makes the most power, for the least money?

I would like to have a 500-600 hp engine in this mustang. And hopefully 10-14MPG. Maybe a 427 would be a better option for these criteria?

600 hp on the cheap may not be easy, but it's more-or-less easiest with the 460 based engine for sure. And forget the 427 for inexpensive power....they are big bux these days.

The fuel economy can be had with the BB 460 in the lightweight Mustang, but not at 600 hp. You might want to find a happy medium such as great gas mileage and 500 hp. 500hp is A LOT for a 3300 pound car. This would be more cost effective, use a lot of OEM parts, and be damn reliable.

Paul

 

I've had mustangs since 1971. I even have 3 now, I attached a pic of one of them. I just wanted you to know I'm not just typing, I walked the walk.

I had a 68 coupe with a modified 302, ran great handled great. That was back in 1972 so hopping them up was standard practice. That was a great car and one I wish I still had today to drive as a daily driver. My engine choice nowdays for a fastback if I weren't going original would be a 351 windsor.

Next I thought the fastback was sharp and came across a 68 GT fastback
with a 390 all original with 56000 miles. I put everything back to original equipment down to the markings on the hoses and plug wires.

Well long story short, I would NOT want a big block in one of these cars again. It plain just is to much weight on the nose. It handled like a pig and didn't hook up for crap. Now that's with original GT rims and tires.

These 68's are great classics but aren't in the wildest streach of the imagination made for big horsepower. You'll be spending a lot of money on suspension and bracing to handle 600 HP and if it had a small block or 6 banger you'll be changing everything suspension wise.

God help you if it has any rust! You would probably twist the body with 600 horse.

I'd pick up a 88 to 93 mustang if I were going with a 460. You really shouldn't butcher a classic. JMO

 

Could always go this route for a fast street car....

I'd still go with a 385 though cause you won't touch that for 8k, it's a biggun
Jr.

 

I'm with Tyler. Good condition stock 302 or 351W with a mild cam and a DIY turbo (such as powerstroke garrett or holset HX40) will get good mileage, lots of torque and 500hp, and good reliability so long as you tune it well and carefully. So figure $400 or so for the long block, add in rod/main bearings, a basic Summit hyd cam, do your own head porting if you want (gotta add in the cost of head gaskets with that), and you'd still be under $700 for the entire engine. Add a used appropriate sized diesel turbo, exhaust piping, and boost referenced fuel regulator, and you could do it all for $1500 or less. The cheapy ebay wastegates generally get good reviews and the mallory boost referenced inexpensive fuel pres regulator work great. The carb doesn't need to be expensive for blowthrough use either. With an edelbrock, it's as simple as drilling out the seats for more flow around the needles, adding a marine accelerator pump, and removing the weighted flapper in the secondaries while it's apart. Then just jet it up, especially in the secondaries, and experiment with metering rods to get it tuned in. A bone stock 302 will be safely fine to 450hp or a bit more. A stock 351W to over 500, with cheapy forged pistons on stock rods and crank, 700hp.

 

Good condition stock 302 or 351W with a mild cam and a DIY turbo (such as powerstroke garrett or holset HX40) will get good mileage, lots of torque and 500hp, and good reliability so long as you tune it well and carefully.

Couple of things (if you, Benny, decide on the turbo sbf route):

I bought a Holset H1E of a cummins 10L backhoe for $80 on ebay. Buddy of mine owns a hummer/diesel shop so he went through it and put in new seals for $20.

Look for a H1E or HX40 for a 302 . . . they have roughly the same compressor map as a 62-1 turbonetics.

The cheapy ebay wastegates generally get good reviews and the mallory boost referenced inexpensive fuel pres regulator work great.

One last thing is the ebay wastegate I bought (tial knock-off) was NOT machined properly. You have to remove the inner spring regardless as the springs are setup for 15lbs as they are sold. Secondly the valve in my chinese wastegate opened only enough to allow use of HALF the port. 30 minutes on the brideport and I got full movement but check those things before you run them.

I guess you could say the chinese knock-off stuff is like Barry Grant carbs, they work great but you have to be the QC

just for reference here was my junkyard project:

 

Torke, it's true that the brass floats in the ebrocks crush under more than 10psi boost and like you said, the nitrophyl thermoquad floats can be grafted in place of them. I was going to do a bbf turbo build for my mustang. Space is the big issue for most people unless they want to go remote mount way, and even then things are tight and involved. I think most people just figure that if they can get 800+hp out of a turboed small block, then why go with the big block? And if they want more power than that, they've probably got a pretty involved (aka, $$$) race car and will go with aftermarket small block for weight savings. OR, they go all out and build a turboed 2000+hp big block. With the turbo stuff being more and more attainable all the time, I think the aluminum heads/roller cam/high compression/trying to eek out the last bit of power from a N/A combo is becoming less financially smart. When, for less money, you can put a basic turbo setup on a small block and make more reliable hp than a big block with aftermarket heads and big (for street use) cam, why go big block? I'm in this situation now. I have my 514 almost complete, but I've got small blocks laying around and turbos and transmissions for both. The 514 is likely going in my hay hauler farm truck since my cars are only street driven and my turbo 514 is going to be useless beyond 1/3 throttle anyway... even though I plan to fill the mini tubs with as much rubber as possible.

 

Well thanks for all the helpful replies everyone. So to put it in my own words...

A big block will be more reliable than a 500hp smallblock. So that's one advantage. How much more reliable are we talking about though? Could a 100K miles 550 hp big block be built?

If I do decide to build a big block, it makes sense to do an ebay turbo build, cause you make a lot more power for a lot less cash. Does that sound right?

A big block will be more reliable and have more torque, but a small block will handle substantially better. So that is a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to road manners. But wouldn't the aluminum heads help this a little bit? I mean, how much more could a 460 with aluminum heads weigh? Than say an all iron 302 or 351. Just asking cause I would like to know.

The car I have chosen does not really handle big power well. I was thinking of going over all the seams with a wire welder anyway, for more "torsional rigidity." As well as all the usual stuff like subframe connectors etc. I mean, couldn't something be rigged up so that it wouldn't hurt the car?

And I know we have ruled out the 427 as "cost effective" but just out of curiosity, how much smaller and lighter are they than a 460? What could one be stroked to?

 

If I do decide to build a big block, it makes sense to do an ebay turbo build, cause you make a lot more power for a lot less cash. Does that sound right?

You aren't gonna find a ebay kit for a BBF let alone one with a single on any big block.

Not sure what size single you would want on a 466+ big block . . . at least a 76mm inlet wheel? 1.16 a/r exhaust? Guess that would come out to a S480/gt47 or something along those lines. Still seems kinda small, those size turbos usually work best on 390-420 inches.

You would probably have to do 60mm twins but calculating your motor needs on a compressor map would be the only way to know for sure.

And if you can't do that then you have a lot of reading on theturboforums.com to do.

 

And that really gets to the nitty gritty of it. If you want the 500 hp and maybe a bit more, you can reliably do that with a turboed/supercharged small block or a naturally aspirated big block. The big block will cost more than a home built turbo small block and get worse mileage along with more weight, BUT it doesn't require the correct tuning and fabrication skillz a home built turbo setup calls for. If you are comfortable modifying a carb, can weld and cut tubing and brackets, take the time to piece together a good turbo setup, AND gradually increase the boost with the proper tune, the turbo setup can be VERY rewarding and impressive. If you just like to have the choppy idle big engine that you can put together simply and throw on an out-of-the-box carb while also getting a reliable long term 500+ hp, the big block is the way to go. A 500hp 460 can be built very cheaply, especially if you get an earlier higher compression engine to start with, but the trans, springs, motor mounts, exhaust... will add up. If you go the turbo small block route, it's best to skip the 302 and use a 351 if there's any chance you'll want more than 500hp at the wheels in the future. Only reason to go 302 is if you've already got a 302 (like a lot of the fox mustang guys) with aftermarket cam/heads/intake. The 302 block is the weak link and above 500hp at the wheels is pushing it. The W block is much more sturdy. 460fastback talked about torque being great, and it is. Roots type superchargers and turbos both make big torque like big cube engines, but without the big cubes. But a roots blower is pretty inefficient, sticks up out of the hood a bunch, and robs quite a bit of power. It pretty much beats the air into submission, err, the intake. That causes unwanted heating of the air. A turbo can make boost pretty early and keep making that boost all the way up the rpms, all while being pretty efficient and not robbing crankshaft power.

 

Stroked 427 FE

Like you said, a 427 FE is not the most cost effective way to go. The blocks are very expensive. However, they are in the area of 80+ lbs lighter than a 460. With aluminum heads, intake, and water pump, they are likely as light or lighter than an iron 351W.

With a .030" overbore on a factory 427 block (4.28"), and a commonly available 4.375" crank, you'd get 504 cubic inches.

With a cheaper 428 block, you'd 475 cubic inches with the same crank and a .030" overbore (4.16")

With a basically free 390 block and a .030" overbore (4.09") and the same crank, you'd get 460 cubic inches.

Just FYI.

paulie

 

So if a person is doing things the "smart" way, it's either a 460, or a 351. I may be mistaken on this, but didn't they have an all iron 351 in the 1994-1995 Mustang Cobra? If so, does anyone happen to know how much less an all iron motor weighs, than a 460 with aluminum heads, aluminum intake, aluminum water pump, and any other aluminum parts that could be substituted? (not the block though, lets leave that iron for cost reasons) I may be just a noob, but I can't see the iron 351 weighing all that much less than the aluminum 460. I think they would be reasonably close to the same weight. Of course the 460 would still weigh more, but I am not entirely sure it would be enough to make the car handle as badly as some people seem to think that it would.


Oh and one other thing, to clarify. I got a little confused by some of the posts that came later. A junkyard turbo build for a 460 is a great and inexpensive idea, correct? Like the garret turbos off of the 7.3L diesel engine? What kind of power could a build like that make, and what kind of engine life might be expected? Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to soak up info from you guys like a sponge lol.

I really want to build a 460, but I am going to do what I can to minimize the disadvantages. So far the only one that I couldn't deal with is people saying that it won't stop or turn well. But I really wasn't planning on leaving the stock suspension or steering, so that got me wondering what exactly they were talking about.

 

Personally, for economy of instalation and total money outlay Vs. the power to be gotten ... I'd use a 393 stroker 351W.

By far, the most performance PER DOLLAR for the whole job at hand but, not as much fun in the WOW department.

 

A turbo 460 is a fine idea, but you're going to be stuck trying to find room for it. A 460 is a tight fit in a 67-68 stang. Adding a turbo takes up a bunch more room that simply isn't there. I've got a lot of room in my '69 mustang project (which is going nowhere in this down economy) but that's because I don't have any shock towers and my firewall is moved back almost 8" (I'm now regretting this change as it's a big hassle and 1000+hp is pretty useless on the street). If you're planning to keep the shock towers and pretty close to stock suspension, I'd say go with the small block... like the 393 Randy suggests. If you really really want the big block, be prepared to do some cutting and beefing. Also, a turbo 460, even a mild one, is going to be not much but a lot of tire smoke on the street once you get into the boost. If you were to just slap a small turbo on a bone stock 460, you'll get torque but that's pretty pointless and not cost effective for your purpose as you could have just added a cam, intake, and headers to get pretty much the same results with less hassle.

So what it comes down to is either building a heads/cam/intake/headers 393, a turbo small block (if you want more power than the 393 for probably less total $ BUT also more hassle and research and tuning), a mild big block just to say you have a big block with similar results as the 393, or a big nasty big block which you'll never possibly get to hook up on the street under full throttle. The costs of those options will vary by quite a bit and it's really up to you to take inventory of what your real goals and wants are vs. your money and time and skills available.

 

You are saying that the big bad 460 wouldn't hook up in first, right? What are they like in second? I am just sort of trying to get a feel for how bad they won't hook up, I guess. If it helps, I am going to use a T-56 six speed transmission. I like that sixth gear for the highway. I am building this car to drive all over the place lol.

As for the hooking up... I may not be clear on what exactly you are talking about but there is some mustang shop in Fort Worth (near me) that advertises that if they can't make your car hook up, you don't pay. I don't know what the stipulations are, (cause I'm sure that there are some) but I have heard a lot of people talking about them.

 

How about not hook up in 4th or even 5th? 1st gear will be totally useless at anything above idle w/ a built 460, 2nd probably won't be much better. Street tires have a pretty limited amount of grip. I had a mildly built 351W (roughly 325hp/400tq) in my stang before w/ a C4, 3.55 gear and a limited slip. That thing would cook street tires all day long. I locked it in 2nd one day to see if it would take off any better from a stop and the second that accellerator hit the floor plumes of smoke came billowing from those rear tires. Lots of fun but hardley the fastest way to get around.

W/ a good suspension setup and drag radials you may get it to kinda hook on the street but then you have to deal w/ fast wearing expensive tires.